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autoharp
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« Reply #30 on: 23:16:03, 18-07-2007 » |
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Well put, Alistair.
Another underpublicised quality of these instruments is the pedal notes - used by virtually nobody. On Bb baritone horn + euphonium, that means the notes between Bb (2 octaves + a bit below middle C) and the E below. no fast tonguing, of course . . .
By a strange coincidence, a friend I visited this afternoon had one of those "oval tenor horns" that the Serbs use. It was a Bb instrument - same pitch as the baritone horn and euphonium. Light + pretty easy to hit high notes - it felt like playing an Eb tenor horn. Trouble was that the function of valves 1 + 2 was the reverse of any normal brass instrument.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #31 on: 23:57:50, 18-07-2007 » |
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Talking of pedal notes, one of the striking features of the fourth movement of the Symphonie Fantastique is the pedal notes played on the trombones, which don't seem to be used much elsewhere by others either. Curiously, my score (an old edition) swaps over the trombone and tuba (properly ophicleide) parts so that those pedal notes are give to the tuba. Someone must have thought that Berlioz had got it wrong, or that that would be a more practical solution.
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« Last Edit: 00:07:16, 19-07-2007 by Tony Watson »
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #32 on: 00:02:57, 19-07-2007 » |
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That reminds me, there's a wonderful passage in Piston's book on Orchestration where he talks about the pedal notes that Berlioz uses in the Requiem. He talks about how awful they sound.
I can never decide whether he's right or not.
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #33 on: 00:14:14, 19-07-2007 » |
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Favourite low note moments: the double bassoon in Mozart's Funeral Music and the rumble of the organ at the beginning of Strauss's Also Sprach.
But back to tubas. I think I read that Vaughan Williams' Tuba Concerto was written for the less common variety in F. If so, is that an obstacle to its performance?
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autoharp
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« Reply #34 on: 00:19:54, 19-07-2007 » |
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But back to tubas. I think I read that Vaughan Williams' Tuba Concerto was written for the less common variety in F. If so, is that an obstacle to its performance?
I think not, Tony. And remember that of the well-known horn concertos, 2 by Haydn, 4 by Mozart and 2 by Strauss are not in F ! |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #35 on: 01:06:56, 19-07-2007 » |
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Talking of pedal notes, one of the striking features of the fourth movement of the Symphonie Fantastique is the pedal notes played on the trombones, which don't seem to be used much elsewhere by others either. Curiously, my score (an old edition) swaps over the trombone and tuba (properly ophicleide) parts so that those pedal notes are give to the tuba. Someone must have thought that Berlioz had got it wrong, or that that would be a more practical solution.
The trombone pedals are a lot less secure in attack than bass tubas at the same pitch. But Berlioz knew this and (I'm sure) wanted an uncouth snarling attack rather than a precise one. I have the impression that Walter Piston didn't understand this kind of thing. His derisive comments on saxophones are pretty special too. |
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ahinton
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« Reply #36 on: 08:11:53, 19-07-2007 » |
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Talking of pedal notes, one of the striking features of the fourth movement of the Symphonie Fantastique is the pedal notes played on the trombones, which don't seem to be used much elsewhere by others either. Curiously, my score (an old edition) swaps over the trombone and tuba (properly ophicleide) parts so that those pedal notes are give to the tuba. Someone must have thought that Berlioz had got it wrong, or that that would be a more practical solution.
The trombone pedals are a lot less secure in attack than bass tubas at the same pitch. But Berlioz knew this and (I'm sure) wanted an uncouth snarling attack rather than a precise one. I have the impression that Walter Piston didn't understand this kind of thing. His derisive comments on saxophones are pretty special too. I'm sure that you're right on all counts here, although it remains surprising that Piston was a ingorant of the facts and realities as he showed himself to be in this department on occasion. But then why struggle to get good and reliable pedal notes on the tenor trombone when the contrabass trombone (pitched an octave below the tenor) could be used instead? Best, Alistair |
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smittims
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« Reply #37 on: 09:22:38, 19-07-2007 » |
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Elgar played the trombone for fun (i.e.not in an orchestra) and uses pedal notes ocasionally,e.g. in Cockagne and the third bavarian dance.
I can't recall if Holst (who was a professional trombonist for a while) writes them.Mahler does,notably at the end of the first song in 'das Lied von der Erde'.
I've always understood that the Planets requires a Euphonium,Firebird and Rite of Spring two Wagner Tubas,but as for the 'tenor horn' in Mahler 7 I think a B flat Wagner Tuba best. I think it's meant to sound like a French horn but with added depth.
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autoharp
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« Reply #38 on: 09:47:12, 19-07-2007 » |
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But then why struggle to get good and reliable pedal notes on the tenor trombone when the contrabass trombone (pitched an octave below the tenor) could be used instead?
I'm guessing, but I'd say a) they sound different b) contrabass trombone uses more breath c) Berlioz didn't like "em Pedal notes on any brass instrument (apart from trumpet) should not be a struggle. French horn players have always had to produce them and I'd say the mouthpiece is the least suitable for pedal notes of any brass instrument. They're even easy to produce on flugelhorn ! Here's a contrabass trombone link - http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/resources/articles/contra.php |
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David_Underdown
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« Reply #39 on: 12:11:10, 19-07-2007 » |
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I certainly used to enjoy practising pedal notes when I played the trombone regularly. I can't think of any in Holst (at least the wind band music, never played any of the orchestral stuff), I know they were a couple of wind band pieces where I did have to use them in anger, but can't recall what at the moment.
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--
David
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time_is_now
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« Reply #40 on: 13:34:17, 19-07-2007 » |
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Funnily enough I just noticed the other day that the last 2 tuba notes in Robin Holloway's Second Concerto for Orchestra (a low E natural and E flat below the stave) are marked 'ped'. Does he know something I don't or do I know something he don't?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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autoharp
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« Reply #41 on: 13:40:57, 19-07-2007 » |
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Hmm. Perhaps it's short for pedante ?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #42 on: 01:21:04, 20-07-2007 » |
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of the well-known horn concertos, 2 by Haydn, 4 by Mozart and 2 by Strauss are not in F !
A pedant writes: Although both Strauss horn concertos are indeed in E flat, the first is (I believe) notated for solo horn in F while the orchestral horns are in E flat. The second is notated for solo horn in E flat and orchestral horns in F. Good luck finding a 'why' for that one. |
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autoharp
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« Reply #43 on: 10:52:52, 20-07-2007 » |
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Yep, I think that's right - + certainly about the solo parts. A bit retro of Dicky to be writing solo Eb parts in 1942 !
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time_is_now
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« Reply #44 on: 11:02:33, 20-07-2007 » |
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I think Dicky was a bit retro in 1942, wasn't he, auto?!
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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