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Author Topic: Baritone horns + euphoniums  (Read 2318 times)
martle
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« Reply #45 on: 11:14:36, 20-07-2007 »

I think Dicky was a bit retro in 1942, wasn't he, auto?!

Hmm. Yes, that dickie on him looks sooo 1930s.

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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #46 on: 11:43:34, 20-07-2007 »

Yep, I think that's right - + certainly about the solo parts. A bit retro of Dicky to be writing solo Eb parts in 1942 !
(I've got this memory of someone (possibly here, possibly it was Adler) talking about Strauss writing for horns in Db major, a crook that doesn't exist, because the transposition is bread and butter for a horn player but reading an F part with tons of flats is a nightmare.)
It could have been at the request of the horn soloist he was writing for I suppose. So possibly it's whether your horn players are retro or not (got any pictures of retro horn players?)
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ahinton
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« Reply #47 on: 12:13:55, 20-07-2007 »

But then why struggle to get good and reliable pedal notes on the tenor trombone when the contrabass trombone (pitched an octave below the tenor) could be used instead?

I'm guessing, but I'd say a) they sound different b) contrabass trombone uses more breath c) Berlioz didn't like "em
Three good guesses constituteth one hat-trick, it seems to me (not that I've ever thought of a hat as a potential brass mute, mind); however, what I wrote was meant in general terms rather than to question why Berlioz did what he did...

Best,

Alistair
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #48 on: 12:24:04, 20-07-2007 »

Strauss writing for horns in Db major, a crook that doesn't exist, because the transposition is bread and butter for a horn player but reading an F part with tons of flats is a nightmare.

That indeed was Strauss's strategy once upon a time - the idea that it's easier to transpose parts with as few accidentals as possible, so use a corresponding transposition - and later on, probably as a result of F parts by then being so normal for everyone, he changed his practice. Similarly for clarinets I think - earlier on he wrote for Bb and A clarinets, even together, later when things were moving in the direction of one instrument being used for everything he wrote everything for Bb and let the player sort it out. (The clarinet part in the oboe concerto is a knucklebuster on the Bb as written; he probably expected the player either to play it as written if that's what they did for other repertoire or to play it on the A if not.)

Damn. A perfectly reasonable reason. At least if one assumes he was thinking of the soloist at the time of the first concerto being more up with the latest practice (or more used to playing solos and thus not necessarily someone for whom transposition is their bread and butter) and the soloist at the time of the second concerto being more used to the Mozartian repertoire which Strauss was by then compositionally emulating a bit anyway; while the orchestral horns would correspondingly conform to orchestral practice.

...er, and I've never thought of the first few pedal notes of the tenor trombone being anything other than very solid and stable (snarling yes, imprecise, certainly not); debatably more so than if a special and unfamiliar instrument were to be brought into play for the purpose. Don't forget that Berlioz uses them in the Symphonie Fantastique very audaciously from the point of view of orchestration but very pragmatically from the point of view of playing technique. The pedal notes are nearly all in 1st position; where the A appears (the only other note), only twice, it's slurred (which perhaps means even slid although I've never heard a performance make much of that and I wouldn't want to hear too often one that made too much of it...) from the Bb. Not just effective but very carefully thought out.

Even in the Hostias of the Requiem (possibly one of the most daring bits of orchestration by anyone, ever) he starts the pedals on the Bb, only bringing in the A and G# by chromatic descent. He could hardly have made it easier.
« Last Edit: 12:35:31, 20-07-2007 by oliver sudden » Logged
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #49 on: 12:37:50, 20-07-2007 »

Strauss's Dad was a horn player wasn't he?
Presumably he gave his son an insight into these things.
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autoharp
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« Reply #50 on: 13:52:39, 20-07-2007 »

(I've got this memory of someone (possibly here, possibly it was Adler) talking about Strauss writing for horns in Db major, a crook that doesn't exist, because the transposition is bread and butter for a horn player but reading an F part with tons of flats is a nightmare.)
It could have been at the request of the horn soloist he was writing for I suppose. So possibly it's whether your horn players are retro or not (got any pictures of retro horn players?)

I guess that if you know the right kind of person, any kind of crook would be available. There's a horn in Db solo in Bellini's La Somnambula . . .

And here's an old player . . .

« Last Edit: 14:44:50, 20-07-2007 by autoharp » Logged
smittims
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« Reply #51 on: 14:06:16, 20-07-2007 »

More favourite low notes:the double bassoon's C flat at the end of the Demons' Chorus in 'The Dream of Gerontius'(the 1954 Sargent recording particularly) and the same instrument's f sharp at bar293 inthe first movemnt of Brahms 1 (the beginning of the lead-back).The following passage is a gem of the instrument's repertoire.

Yes,Franz Strauss was a very distinguisehd horn player and I think may have played the solos in the 1876 Ring.  He is said to have loathed Wanger's music personally but played it well,tothe composer's praise,a nice example of professionalism.he wrote  a fine concerto which Barry Tuckwell once recorded,and which served as the model for his famous son's first horn concerto..
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #52 on: 14:13:29, 20-07-2007 »

Another favourite low note I forgot to mention was that which starts the Ring.

When Wagner's death was announced, Strauss senior was the only member of his orchestra who refused to stand up as a mark of respect.
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autoharp
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« Reply #53 on: 14:57:54, 20-07-2007 »

On the subject of low notes at the beginning of pieces, there's a rather long tutti Ab (2 octaves + 3rd below middle C) at the beginning of Cardew's The Great Learning Paragraph 3. Yes, it's a pedal note on my tenor horn and no, it's not supposed to be on the instrument. And suddenly I remember an ingenious bit of fakery by a noted Australian bass clarinettist who achieved the same note (in Gavin Bryars The Sinking of the Titanic) by inserting a certain length of plastic pole into the instrument's orifice.
And on the subject of pedal notes, there are tubists, baritone hornists etc who are able to produce a series of low notes lower than the fundamentals . . . but don't get any fancy ideas, you composers.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #54 on: 15:30:08, 20-07-2007 »

a certain length of plastic pole
I wondered if anyone still remembered that...

I was quite unprepared for how long that pole would have to be just to get two more little semitones. It also had a slightly lubricious curve to it. I think it's still hanging around at my parents' place somewhere...

I should be able to fake that note on the bass chalumeau. That goes to a notated Bb at 415 and I think an extra semitone of lipping might be a possibility...

Favourite horn low notes? Mahler 6, all 8 horns in unison on a low concert A. Usually the second pedal on the Bb side, but I wonder how someone without a double horn would have played it? Were double horns already all the go by then? If not they would have had to lip it from the whole-tone above - if I'm ever lucky enough to experience some period-instrument Mahler I want to hear 8 horns all trying their darndest to get that in tune and damn nearly making it but not quite. Smiley
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #55 on: 15:48:08, 20-07-2007 »

Take a descant recorder and cover up all the holes to play its lowest note - a C one octave above middle C. Then press the end of the instrument against something to block the end completely (against one's thigh, perhaps) and an F lower than the first note is sounded. I don't know how that works or whether it works on other wind instruments.
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increpatio
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« Reply #56 on: 15:54:08, 20-07-2007 »

Take a descant recorder and cover up all the holes to play its lowest note - a C one octave above middle C. Then press the end of the instrument against something to block the end completely (against one's thigh, perhaps) and an F lower than the first note is sounded. I don't know how that works or whether it works on other wind instruments.

One would think it would go down an octave (the wavelength double)...

open pipe:


closed pipe:


Going to F means its wavelength isn't doubling but increasing by half.  This confuses me.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #57 on: 17:00:19, 20-07-2007 »

If it's going up a fifth it sounds like it's moving from the second harmonic to the third harmonic - remember, doubling the wavelength only gives an octave between the first two harmonics, it decreases on a 1:2::2:3::3:4 etc. ratio after that.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #58 on: 17:25:01, 20-07-2007 »

I don't think what's happening is something with a very obvious explanation. Just tried it with two plastic school descants, an OK garklein and an OK treble. (Not all at once.)

They all gave quiet multiphonics. In no case did I get a lower note on its own except if I blew very softly - any lower note at all only came with a certain amount of overblowing, otherwise they all tipped up to higher overtones (of something!). The descants (normal lowest note c'') gave an e' and a g''#. The garklein (normal lowest note c''') gave an e''b and an a'''b. The treble (normal lowest note f') gave a bb and a d'.

I also have a sopranino, a tenor and a bass lying about. Further examinations on request. Smiley
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Notoriously Bombastic
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« Reply #59 on: 20:56:40, 20-07-2007 »

This is the thread that has drawn me out of lurkerdom, having played a fair amount of both euphonium and baritone.

The best place to get an idea of the difference is a brass band, which has two of each.  Elgar Howarth's Fireworks, while rather cheesy, serves as a good 'Young person's guide to the brass band'.  Good shout for Lincolnshire Posy earlier in the thread - in the wind orchestra world I'd also suggest the Schoenberg Variations.  There's a recording by the RNCM available on Chandos.

As for Wagner tuben, they hunt in packs to create a wodge of sound.  I can't imagine one being solid enough in sound to work in octaves with a bass tuba (as Strauss discovered).  As an aside, in the Rite the tuben sound an octave higher than you'd expect, ie horns in high Bb not low Bb.

And trombone pedals... a lot of tenor trombone pedals are the result of not having todays monster bass trombones.  I believe Berlioz only scored for a bass trombone once.  Elgar wrote the tenor pedal Ab in Cockaigne as the old English bass trombone in G only descends to a C#.  Britten scored a 2nd trombone pedal similarly in his Russian Funeral.

False pedals are generally silly - on a euphonium or bass trombone I can fake from the piano's bottom Bb down to about an F.  Since an Eb tuba can play a fouth lower than a piano anyway, good luck to false toning below there.

A candidate for impresive low note - the double pedal Gb tuba solo in Philip Wilby's Revelation.

Afraid I don't know much about recorders.
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