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Author Topic: "HIP" aspects we're entirely content with  (Read 962 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #15 on: 00:58:59, 02-10-2007 »

Purcell might have had falsettists for some parts, but for higher ones, certainly not for things like 'Tis Nature's Voice.

Warmly agreed - but documentation strongly suggests Purcell sang "Tis Nature's Voice" himself (and was not allowed to continue with the rest of the Ode until he'd encored it!)...  and he was simultaneously a bass?  English cathedrals still have quite a few versatile performers of this kind - employed to do one thing, but ready and able to pitch-in as the other as need demands. I know 2-3 singers of this type myself.  If you have a look at Purcell's Catches (many of which have texts which are either amusingly controversial or openly obscene, and which thus rarely get performed) they're not vocally negotiable without a gear-change into falsetto at some point - and this was considered absolutely normal at the time.  The Catches are typically for three performers, and it's usually on the third sections (ie once a "bass-line" has been established by the opening phrase) that the falsetto opens-up at the end.  "To all Lovers of Musick, both singers and scrapers" is a fairly good example  (which is the Preface to one of the Glee collections published by John Parr, presented set to music) of this.

I think the situation with falsettists in England (I exclude Scotland here, Ron!) was a bit different from what was going on across the Channel, and remained so long after Purcell's time.  So as not to disappoint you Ollie  Wink,  I'll cite Britain's most-shamefully-neglected composer, Stephen Storace...  all of his operas feature baritone characters whose arias are intentionally written to include falsetto sections.  (The performers of these were Bannister, Dignum and Suett - it was a whole tradition, not an isolated "freak" case). At the risk of repeating what I've said before, the "tenor" thing in British opera only emerged when Mick Kelly returned from Italy, and hit a full-voiced top-Bb in "Spirit Of My Sainted Sire" (HAUNTED TOWER) - a sensation which "caused the ladies to feint in admiration", and which hadn't been heard in British opera before.  (We can rely not only on Kelly's garrulous "Musical Reminscences" for backup on this, but also the charming and more musically-informative "Memoirs" of oboist Nathaniel Parke, who clearly idolised Storace and the Italian traditions he brought back from Lugarno and Vienna, and had scant regard for his own employer, William Shield at the Covent Garden Playhouse.  His twin brother was Storace's oboist).  Although Kelly took the "romantic leads" for this 10-year flowering of "Viennese" writing in Britain, performers like Dignum (who always played "loyal and patriotic burgher" roles), Bannister (who was the Shakespearian dramatic lead at Drury Lane, who happened to be able to sing in opera too) and notably Richard "Dicky" Suett (the "John Cleese" of his age) all had huge fan-club followings.  Suett had whole comic operas (MY GRANDMOTHER) written for his abilities in this baritone-falsettist repertoire (sadly the libretto of MY GRANDMOTHER is lost, although the music, including "Dicky's Walk", survives).

Sadly this whole "baritones-who-can-sing-well-in-falsetto" presents another barrier (although not an insuperable one) to getting Storace's work back on stage...  along with the difficulties of finding a coloratura boy-treble to sing "Master Welsh's" roles, and a luxury cast of coloratura sopranos to sing the "Sigra Storace", "Miss Ellis" and "Mrs Crouch" roles Wink

Memo to self - stage one of Storace's pieces next season and finally get a recording of his operatic music onto YouTube at least...
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #16 on: 01:29:26, 02-10-2007 »

The thing I would like to know more about, having only heard it addressed once, is the whole question of castrati.

AFAIK nobody has managed to identify patrons or doctors who "created" these stars of the baroque era, but the suggestion was mooted that perhaps there were more counter-tenors historically than castrati. (N.B. the last update I heard was sometime in the early 1990's).
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #17 on: 11:47:21, 02-10-2007 »

I should repeat that the existence of all these excellent counter-tenors is something I'm perfectly happy about, 'authentic' or not. I suspect the falsetto singing Reiner's talking about is the sort where falsetto is used to add some range at the top of what is otherwise a baritone voice - counter-tenors on the other hand pride themselves on having a particularly sumptuous low falsetto, or at least on carrying the falsetto colour down into the leger lines.

I'm not sure about the stories of Purcell singing 'Tis Nature's Voice (I think we discussed that at TOP) - I understand that that sprang from a report of the event ('Motteux' in The Gentleman's Journal) which mentioned that it was 'performed twice with universal applause, particularly the second stanza, which was sung with incredible graces by Mr Purcell himself', meaning most likely that the graces (or the ornamentation) were written out (which of course they are) rather than improvised by the singer (who according to Purcell's score was a certain John Pate, who also appeared in The Fairy Queen). I don't think Purcell is known as having been a soloist; if that story had been true in the traditional interpretation I find it hard to believe he wouldn't have found himself doing the odd gig from time to time...
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #18 on: 13:47:34, 02-10-2007 »

Reiner - you have whetted my appetitie for Storace and as I am unable to read scores, you must get them recorded.

Michael Kelly may have sung juv leads in London, but surely back in Vienna he created a far from romantic role, near to my heart?
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #19 on: 14:32:27, 02-10-2007 »

Ollie, I cling to that belief in Purcell having sung it himself largely because I read it in a programme-note...  but then I remember that I actually wrote the programme-note, so the argument becomes a bit circular.  I think I originally found this in the very comprehensive annotations in the score of the piece when we did it in 2005, where the editor had read that bit of text the way I had?  But considering that Purcell had followed his uncle into the Westminster Abbey choir (as a bass-man) before becoming organist, I don't think it's entirely impossible that he couldn't have sung his own solos?  (Perhaps it was also "useful" for his career to be seen doing so on occasion?).   I made the obtuse music of having lent the score to a conductor (and of course there is more chance of getting a score back from a shredder than from a conductor) so I don't have it on hand to refer to.  I think I have the vocal score at home, but I doubt it has the abundance of annotations the full score does.

Mick Kelly did sing in London at a very early age* indeed, but I don't think he had any opera roles... he was packed off to Italy to learn to sing "properly", which was where he bumped into the Storaces accidently, at Lugarno, on the sea-front. Apparently he was joking with acquaintances and speculating in English whether the "creature" with the young man across the street was male or female, and was surprised to get an extremely tart reply from La Storace in English, to the effect that "the creature, Sir, is a she-animal".  From memory I think his entire early career was in Italy and Austria?  But I've recently managed to get a fresh copy of his Reminiscences, so I can check?  One of his most famous early roles was Don Curzio in the premiere of FIGARO, into which he introduced a "comical stammer", he tells us. (Nancy Storace sang Susanna).  But he sang almost everything offered to him in Vienna, including lots of Salieri, Martin Y Soler, Cimarosa, and much else...  what role were you thinking of?  Smiley

* his Reminscences note that his desire to become a singer was motivated in his youth in London, when he'd just arrived from Ireland, by singing a succesful performer sit down in the shop-window of a fruit-shop in mid-summer, and proceed to devour oranges, slices of melon, "and finally a pine-apple, at which point I could bear to look no longer, and resolved to take more seriously to my vocal studies in the hope of one day having a pine-apple of my own".

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-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Don Basilio
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« Reply #20 on: 14:42:40, 02-10-2007 »


One of his most famous early roles was Don Curzio in the premiere of FIGARO, into which he introduced a "comical stammer", he tells us. (Nancy Storace sang Susanna).  But he sang almost everything offered to him in Vienna, including lots of Salieri, Martin Y Soler, Cimarosa, and much else...  what role were you thinking of?  Smiley

I seemed to remember that he created Don Basilio as well.  I can't check off hand, but I notice that Francis Egerton sings both roles on the Gardner recording.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #21 on: 14:53:28, 02-10-2007 »

I seemed to remember that he created Don Basilio as well.  I can't check off hand, but I notice that Francis Egerton sings both roles on the Gardner recording.

Quite right! I'd forgotten he'd sung both.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #22 on: 15:01:05, 02-10-2007 »

The HIP thing I think is an improvement is that recent recordings of Rossini operas where there is secco recitative, nowadays use a fortepiano, rather than a harpsichord plonking out the chords.  I find it less intrusive. 

On the other hand, the earliest recording of a Mozart opera I ever bought was 2 LPs of a pre WW2 Glyndebourne Nozze di Figaro.  No arias for Don B, Marzellina or Barbarina, of course, and hardly any secco recitative, but the few bars that were included were banged out on what sounded like a saloon bar upright joanna. 
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #23 on: 18:44:14, 02-10-2007 »

This isn't exactly mainstream repertoire, but I always find HIP renditions of aleatorically theatrical pieces from the 1960s and '70s interesting:  When such pieces as Wolff's For One, Two, or Three People or some of Cage's Variations are mounted, you can usually tell right off the bat whether the performers are aiming for a "happening-like" (i.e. HIP) interpretation or a "textual" one divorced from the '60s performance conventions of such works.  I don't know whether this literature is popular in the UK, although I assume that performances of Cardew's Treatise, for instance, happen from time to time–does this performance practice question come up in that context?

I can only speak from my own experience of preparing Cardew and Wolff here (and not those works that you've mentioned). The questions came up in discussion with the other performers but we agreed that it was more interesting and useful to approach the scores afresh, mainly because of the way that I feel the 'happening-like' interpretations can sometimes obscure the actual music (and it tends to encourage rogue elements within the group...)
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Colin Holter
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« Reply #24 on: 20:37:33, 02-10-2007 »

This isn't exactly mainstream repertoire, but I always find HIP renditions of aleatorically theatrical pieces from the 1960s and '70s interesting:  When such pieces as Wolff's For One, Two, or Three People or some of Cage's Variations are mounted, you can usually tell right off the bat whether the performers are aiming for a "happening-like" (i.e. HIP) interpretation or a "textual" one divorced from the '60s performance conventions of such works.  I don't know whether this literature is popular in the UK, although I assume that performances of Cardew's Treatise, for instance, happen from time to time–does this performance practice question come up in that context?

I can only speak from my own experience of preparing Cardew and Wolff here (and not those works that you've mentioned). The questions came up in discussion with the other performers but we agreed that it was more interesting and useful to approach the scores afresh, mainly because of the way that I feel the 'happening-like' interpretations can sometimes obscure the actual music (and it tends to encourage rogue elements within the group...)

I feel the same way.  Have you ever worked on any of these pieces with someone who had first-hand (i.e. in the '60s/'70s) experience with them when they were new?  I've found that such "historical musicians," so to speak, naturally gravitate toward interpretive decisions that, as you said, "obscure the actual music."
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #25 on: 21:18:34, 02-10-2007 »

I feel the same way.  Have you ever worked on any of these pieces with someone who had first-hand (i.e. in the '60s/'70s) experience with them when they were new?  I've found that such "historical musicians," so to speak, naturally gravitate toward interpretive decisions that, as you said, "obscure the actual music."
No. I've avoided it when I can. I don't think that these pieces always have identities that are well established enough to 'need' HIP (and there's a debate to be had about whether Cage's performances of his own works were always as 'authentic to the text' as his writings would suggest was intrinsic to the very identity of the piece) - perhaps this is something to do with the notational issues - when everything's notated, there's some kind of identity on the page that doesn't exist when the notation is graphic or text... maybe.
Trevor Wishart offered help with my realisation of Cardew, but I preferred to work on the interpretation myself. Having done that, I'd be interested to work with him now.
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'is this all we can do?'
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #26 on: 21:59:00, 02-10-2007 »

PS Cardew and Wolff are particularly interesting in this respect for me, because they have both written on the subject of the necessity of producing notation that doesn't require the sort-of-HIP interventions that we've been discussing...
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'is this all we can do?'
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #27 on: 05:11:40, 12-11-2008 »

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.


Here is what Adam Fischer, director of the Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra, writes about

Haydn with modern instruments?

Quote
Let me say first of all that I'm very much in favour of period instruments. I conduct orchestras which use them, and I believe passionately that every musician should at least learn how to play them, as they help to form a player's musical taste and are a key to understanding the function of old music.
We use modern instruments for two reasons: firstly, our musicians come from the leading orchestras of Vienna and Budapest. They play the instruments they have grown up with - including, for example, Viennese horns and oboes - and they need these instruments to express themselves. Secondly, it is an important intention of the Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra to offer an alternative to historic ensembles for eighteenth-century music. Our style is based on this living tradition of Austro-Hungarian music-making. We cultivate our own 'local dialect', a flow of little rubatos, accents, and so on, that makes Haydn's music alive, and gives dramatic sense to the performance. Some elements of that tradition have already been developed on new instruments, and can be realised better on them.
Even radical supporters of period instruments agree that the personality of the player is more important than the question of what instrument he or she plays. I endeavour to choose players who feel a personal affinity with Haydn's music, who are able to express this identity in their playing and who react instantly and automatically to the other players' rubatos. The vital point is that a concert should be exciting and convincing. A boring performance remains a crime, even if it is historically 'correct.'
And last but not least, we only play authentically if we reach the same feelings in the listener as the music did two hundred years ago. Since our sense of perception has changed much more than the instruments have, it is really not enough to recreate the sound in order to recreate the emotional effect.

Priceless, eh? Please give this to your 13-year-old son/daughter to pick apart the logic. Good exercise, for a teenager!

(I do like these recordings, though, of the Paris symphonies.)
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Robert Dahm
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« Reply #28 on: 06:47:07, 12-11-2008 »

Apart from the truly spectacular final paragraph, I wonder if Maestro Fischer isn't simply expressing himself rather poorly? I think what he's pretty much trying to say is that he thinks that these performances take on the revelations of the HIP movement, but incorporate it into the living orchestral tradition, rather than actually attempting to be HIP.

Maybe.

I really enjoy that set of the complete symphonies, from go to whoa. I listened to this set (admittedly in the background, much of the time) from 1 to 104 without stopping to listen to other music. It was a particularly interesting exercise in terms of actually hearing how the symphony (something that it's very easy to think of as being something with a definable form) gradually takes shape. One of my favourite bits is when what we think of as being a fairly typical 'Haydn-style slow introduction' first occurs in the mid-60s, somewhere, and the audacity of it seems absolutely jaw-dropping.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #29 on: 08:50:29, 12-11-2008 »

Isn't that last paragraph a rather bungled version of what Adorno has to say on the matter (he says casually despite having never read more than a chapter of said author)? I seem to remember Max Paddison saying something to that effect (though a very much more length and depth and breadth and length and length).
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
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