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Author Topic: "HIP" aspects we're entirely content with  (Read 962 times)
Mrs. Kerfoops
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« Reply #30 on: 09:31:44, 12-11-2008 »

I seem to remember Max Paddison saying something to that effect (though a very much more length and depth and breadth and length and length).


This Mr. Paddison - the author of "Stravinsky as Devil" does seem overmuch obsessed with Adorno. Not only that but if members care to consult this link they will find the aforesaid Mr. Paddison's "mug-shot" displayed in five identical copies on a single web-page. That is over-doing it rather is not it? Perhaps Mr. Paddison's life is too frenetic and he would benefit from a sabbatical.

P.S. there are five photographs of Dr. Spitzer as well - but although his teeth are much better kept than those of Professor Paddison members will want only one:

« Last Edit: 09:37:32, 12-11-2008 by Mrs. Kerfoops » Logged
Ruby2
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« Reply #31 on: 09:39:05, 12-11-2008 »

will find the aforesaid Mr. Paddison's "mug-shot" displayed in five identical copies on a single web-page. That is over-doing it rather is not it? Perhaps Mr. Paddison's life is too frenetic and he would benefit from a sabbatical.
Perhaps they've cloned him because he was so busy.  It did appear to be a list of staff.
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"Two wrongs don't make a right.  But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
oliver sudden
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« Reply #32 on: 10:00:45, 12-11-2008 »

One ironic thing for me in the period-instrument orchestra business is that it started out with still more or less 'modern'-sized orchestras, just with the instruments set up differently. But when you have an excessively large number of strings that obscures the point of setting any of the instruments up historically - the strings themselves because there are too many of them, the winds (and keyboard) because you can't hear them properly past all the strings. And with too many players you need someone out the front waving their arms about and deciding on interpretation, which changes the whole nature of the enterprise.

The Eszterháza orchestra numbered between 13 and 24 players in total, I'm told, and the latter was mainly for opera performances.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #33 on: 10:38:37, 12-11-2008 »

One ironic thing for me in the period-instrument orchestra business is that it started out with still more or less 'modern'-sized orchestras, just with the instruments set up differently. But when you have an excessively large number of strings that obscures the point of setting any of the instruments up historically - the strings themselves because there are too many of them, the winds (and keyboard) because you can't hear them properly past all the strings. And with too many players you need someone out the front waving their arms about and deciding on interpretation, which changes the whole nature of the enterprise.

However. "Decisions on interpretation" wouldn't have been an issue at all in the 18th century because there'd have been no discussion as to what "18th century style" would have been. So that's one function the armwaver might have nowadays, apart from armwaving. Mr Hogwood is of the opinion that Haydn didn't use a keyboard continuo for his Esterhazy symphonies, although his recorded performance don't make a particularly good case for leaving it out in my opinion. As I'm sure you know, the inflated string sections of otherwise HI performances of (for example) early Haydn have more to do with the kind of spaces they're performed in nowadays than anything else.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #34 on: 11:11:22, 12-11-2008 »

However. "Decisions on interpretation" wouldn't have been an issue at all in the 18th century because there'd have been no discussion as to what "18th century style" would have been. So that's one function the armwaver might have nowadays, apart from armwaving. Mr Hogwood is of the opinion that Haydn didn't use a keyboard continuo for his Esterhazy symphonies, although his recorded performance don't make a particularly good case for leaving it out in my opinion. As I'm sure you know, the inflated string sections of otherwise HI performances of (for example) early Haydn have more to do with the kind of spaces they're performed in nowadays than anything else.
I don't think that just because they were all playing in the same style there wouldn't have been discrepancies on matters of taste, though (I can't believe that all 'Allegro' movements would have been exactly the same speed!) - which is in fact what a conductor inevitably irons out. In a good unconducted ensemble you have all kinds of decisions being made amongst the players (not necessarily consciously), which for me is why groups such as Cristofori or Concerto Köln or the Freiburgers at their best can do things that a conducted group can't.

Whatever Haydn used in Eszterháza, he certainly had a keyboard in the 98th symphony in London of course.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #35 on: 11:22:29, 12-11-2008 »

I don't think that just because they were all playing in the same style there wouldn't have been discrepancies on matters of taste, though (I can't believe that all 'Allegro' movements would have been exactly the same speed!) - which is in fact what a conductor inevitably irons out. In a good unconducted ensemble you have all kinds of decisions being made amongst the players (not necessarily consciously), which for me is why groups such as Cristofori or Concerto Köln or the Freiburgers at their best can do things that a conducted group can't.

Whatever Haydn used in Eszterháza, he certainly had a keyboard in the 98th symphony in London of course.

Maybe he just walked on stage with a Casio at the appropriate moment.

As for the discrepancies, my feeling is that in terms of things like phrasing they would have been part of the music so to speak, comparably to (but obviously not the same as) what happens in jazz groups. I would imagine not only that Allegro wouldn't always be the same speed but that any given Allegro movement wouldn't always be performed at the same speed by the same musicians. I suppose when I said "conductor" I meant more a kind of "MD" like Reinhard Goebel rather than a "proper" conductor like JEG.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #36 on: 11:27:28, 12-11-2008 »

Veering slightly, but staying on the subject of armwavers...

Why is it that singers can't seem to cope without an armwaver?  I'm not talking about soloists, but as soon as you group them into even a very small ensemble and ask them to follow a violinist or keyboard player, they can't seem to handle it.  The most successful attempts I've seen at directing a choir rather than conducting one involve the keyboard player basically stopping playing and waving (often even standing up).  Why why why?  It seriously hampers any attempt to create a conductor-less environment.  If there's a mixed choral/instrumental program, a conductor is thought to be "necessary" - and depending on how intelligent or modest that conductor is (ha!), they may think it a slight to be sent away for the instrumental works which then get muddled by "maestro's" presence.

(I speak from recent personal frustrating experience...)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #37 on: 11:35:47, 12-11-2008 »

I have often wondered that myself. I suppose it must be that singers are much less used to being led by an instrumentalist than other instrumentalists are.
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Robert Dahm
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« Reply #38 on: 11:46:08, 12-11-2008 »

I suspect that choral singing has nothing to do with how good those individual singers might be at remaining in time with an instrument. I've often thought that the choir is kind of like a massive meta-instrument in that every member is focused on making the correct contribution to the choral sound. It's not as simple as just keeping in time with another instrument: they all have to keep in time together as a choir, with another instrument.

This isn't to say I think it should be impossible (although I'm not a chorister, by any means), just that it's probably harder than when you're actually playing in the group that you're expecting the choir to adjust to.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #39 on: 11:52:48, 12-11-2008 »

Thinking about it more, I suppose it shows up an unfortunate divide in how instrumentalists and singers are taught.  I'm sure in the 17th/18th centuries, everyone was expected to sing and play (more than one instrument of course), would have understood each other better and would have been able to lead/follow each other more easily.  Most singers I know maybe have a bit of piano but gave up any other instrument long before reaching the stage of understanding ensemble playing well (and the piano is not conducive to that, especially as a second-study instrument).  I know a few instrumentalists who have sung a lot and it's interesting to get an insight into how they understand what singers are doing.  But for the most part everyone is pretty ignorant of what the other group does.

As for string section size - certainly among the British groups financial restraints (if nothing else) have led the way towards smaller sections (opera productions being an exception).  AAM is hardly ever larger than 4,4,2,2,1 these days.  We're doing a Haydn programme next year with six fiddles total.  It may be for gloomy money-related reasons, but it's led to some very interesting playing (I think).

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Just saw Robert Dahm's post.  Yes of course a choir needs to be together within itself, but so does an orchestra.  Why is there such a divide between the two, while there's no such divide (well, usually) between diverse elements within a self-directed orchestra (string/wind for example)?  It's not just a matter of choir-adapting-to-orchestra - the ideal is to create a whole ensemble that can be kept together through chamber-music-like techniques, or a MD playing an instrument (for practical reasons - the lead violin/cello or keyboard is the only person everyone has a chance of seeing without turning their backs on the audience).
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Robert Dahm
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« Reply #40 on: 12:14:49, 12-11-2008 »

The difference lies of course in that in the instrumental situations you cite, the ideal is for a player to be heard both individually and as part of the group (ie: you want to actually hear the clarinet as an individual, although of course the player must also blend). In a choir, if you are audible as an individual to any significant degree this is highly undesirable.

The difference is essentially one of the degree to which the performer is able to conceive of the their contribution as being individual and able to shape performance. In a choir of more than about 3 or 4 voices per part this is manifestly not possible, although the chamber-like whole ensemble that you speak of is surely the way to go in 1- or 2-vpp setups where the individual singer's ability to actually behave in a chamber-like way is far greater.

But I'm probably wrong.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #41 on: 12:47:46, 12-11-2008 »

But I'm mostly thinking of choirs of no more than 3 per part, where the responsibility is similar to, say, a small string section (where in larger groups it is equally wrong for individuals to stand out).  They may be able to direct themselves, but put them together with a chamber orchestra or HIP ensemble and suddenly there's a great necessity for a carver, any carver.

Maybe it's also a sign that we don't really get enough rehearsal time (again down to financial considerations).  If we all had a chance to get used to such a set-up, it probably would eventually work well.  But with typically 3-9 hours rehearsal if that...
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Ruby2
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« Reply #42 on: 12:57:40, 12-11-2008 »

But I'm mostly thinking of choirs of no more than 3 per part, where the responsibility is similar to, say, a small string section (where in larger groups it is equally wrong for individuals to stand out).  They may be able to direct themselves, but put them together with a chamber orchestra or HIP ensemble and suddenly there's a great necessity for a carver, any carver.
Would you be able to hear the instruments well enough from the middle of a choir?  Just wondering if you'd be more likely to hear other voices but not much else.
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"Two wrongs don't make a right.  But three rights do make a left." - Rohan Candappa
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #43 on: 16:34:25, 12-11-2008 »

Veering slightly, but staying on the subject of armwavers...

Why is it that singers can't seem to cope without an armwaver?  I'm not talking about soloists, but as soon as you group them into even a very small ensemble and ask them to follow a violinist or keyboard player, they can't seem to handle it.
I wish I had your problem. In my experience, many choruses, even ones with a highly cultivated and professional sound, have trouble coping with an armwaver other than their usual director.
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Robert Dahm
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« Reply #44 on: 00:04:25, 14-11-2008 »

But I'm mostly thinking of choirs of no more than 3 per part, where the responsibility is similar to, say, a small string section (where in larger groups it is equally wrong for individuals to stand out).  They may be able to direct themselves, but put them together with a chamber orchestra or HIP ensemble and suddenly there's a great necessity for a carver, any carver.

Maybe it's also a sign that we don't really get enough rehearsal time (again down to financial considerations).  If we all had a chance to get used to such a set-up, it probably would eventually work well.  But with typically 3-9 hours rehearsal if that...

I'm terribly sorry, Strina - I think my disagreement with you was based on a misapprehension of what you meant by 'choir'.

I suspect, then, that the difficulties in performing unconducted arise simply from the differing level of musical training and experience present in your average choir versus your average orchestra.

It also probably depends on the style of the group's normal music director (ie: is that person an arm-waver, or a singing member of the group) as to whether those sorts of ensemble skills have been developed within a given group.

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