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Author Topic: "HIP" aspects we're entirely content with  (Read 962 times)
Reiner Torheit
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« on: 22:30:18, 30-09-2007 »

Rather than becoming bogged-down in abstruse theories that have no usable relevance to performance...

... tell us about instances in "mainstream repertoire" (ie the kind of thing which might get a play on R3) where you feel some "Historically Informed Practice" (or "authenticism" if you don't mind the brickbats you'll get for using the term..) has substantially improved your enjoyment of a performance?   You can either talk in general, or about specific interpretations.  Let's please try to talk about benefits, although if you're unconvinced by something and you'd like to say why, that would be welcome too!

To get the ball rolling, I'd like to mention using cornets instead of trumpets in the overture to Verdi's RIGOLETTO - they're what the composer expected and wrote for,  and they're a quite different sound to trumpets.  (To be overly simplistic, the cornet is effectively a soprano horn, with tubing that slowly and gradually expands in diameter throughout its length...  whereas trumpets remain cylindrical for 2/3rds of their length, before "flaring" to a bell-shape more rapidly.  That's why they make different noises Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Tony Watson
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« Reply #1 on: 00:08:04, 01-10-2007 »

I think the revival of the ophicleide has freshened up some music, especially the overture to Mendelssohn's A Midsummer Night's Dream and the last two movements of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique. It could be said that these composers only wrote for it because the tuba wasn't around then but the tuba can be rather bland sometimes, I think.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #2 on: 11:07:37, 01-10-2007 »

I'm entirely with you on the ophicleide, Tony - it's a completely different instrument for which the tuba (a fine instrument in its own repertoire!) is an inappropriate substitute.  It's like replacing double-basses with bass guitars Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
ahinton
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« Reply #3 on: 11:13:00, 01-10-2007 »

an inappropriate substitute.  It's like replacing double-basses with bass guitars Wink
If anyone ever tries to do that in my string quintet, I will be exceedingly distressed...

Best,

Alistair
« Last Edit: 17:58:08, 01-10-2007 by ahinton » Logged
strinasacchi
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« Reply #4 on: 12:58:50, 01-10-2007 »


I'm going to (predictably!) jump in with praise for the rediscovered difference in sound gut stringing makes.  Well-made gut strings have a range of colours that metal strings simply can't give.

Of course, it's only very recently that gut strings are being made well again.  And there's a lot further to go - much of the string-making art has been lost.  I've heard about people using late 19th century gut strings they've found tucked inside a dusty violin case in the attic, expecting them to be dried out, unstable, thin in sound and ready to break.  Six months of glorious sound later and not even the thinnest E-string has broken.  Not even the best contemporary stringmakers can produce something half that good.

I've heard that gut-stringing only gave way to metal during the first world war, and only then because gut was scarce (being needed rather more urgently by surgeons).  Anyone know more about this?

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Kittybriton
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Thank you for the music ...


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« Reply #5 on: 15:11:19, 01-10-2007 »

In my own experience, it has been the most fundamental changes that have made the difference; the use of counter-tenors, and appropriate instruments for performance. My parents were very much old-school, still believing that antiquated instruments had been superseded because the new developments provided a better quality of sound and were more reliable, as well as being loud enough to participate in orchestral performances.

I still think of chamber music as something by Haydn or possibly Mendelssohn because that is the repertoire I learned to associate with the term. But I remember being delighted to learn that a clavichord recital was quite well able to entertain an entire church-full of listeners, in stark contrast to the whispering tones I had been led to expect.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #6 on: 15:49:13, 01-10-2007 »

an inappropriate substitute.  It's like replacing double-basses with bass guitars Wink
If anyone ever tried to do that in my string quintet, I will be exceednigly distressed...
As will Mr Kipling, I'm sure.

I'm looking forward to being old enough to instruct people in historically-informed performances of Peter Maxwell Davies.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #7 on: 16:06:54, 01-10-2007 »


I'm looking forward to being old enough to instruct people in historically-informed performances of Peter Maxwell Davies.

I already did some historically-informed performances of Tippett Smiley  There are some recorder parts with double-tonguing marked in them...  having spent years learning to do baroque-style DID-dle-DID-dle articulation, we had to revert to ta-ka-taka (as taught in "Play The Recorder" by Carl Dolmetsch) and used plastic 1960s recorders specially Wink
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
ahinton
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« Reply #8 on: 18:02:29, 01-10-2007 »

an inappropriate substitute.  It's like replacing double-basses with bass guitars Wink
If anyone ever tried to do that in my string quintet, I will be exceedingly distressed...
As will Mr Kipling, I'm sure.
The real original Mr Kipling could not have known my string quintet and I rather doubt that his commodified alter ego would have encountered it either; furthermore, the work is hardly a piece of cake, as any one of its six performers would doubtless tell you were you to ask!

I'm looking forward to being old enough to instruct people in historically-informed performances of Peter Maxwell Davies.
[/quote]
I very much hope - as I'm sure we all do around here - that your wish be granted in due course!

Best,

Alistair
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martle
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« Reply #9 on: 18:12:40, 01-10-2007 »

The real original Mr Kipling could not have known my string quintet... the work is hardly a piece of cake, as any one of its six performers would doubtless tell you were you to ask!


Sounds like an exceedingly unusual quintet, does that.  Wink
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ahinton
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« Reply #10 on: 18:15:34, 01-10-2007 »

The real original Mr Kipling could not have known my string quintet... the work is hardly a piece of cake, as any one of its six performers would doubtless tell you were you to ask!


Sounds like an exceedingly unusual quintet, does that.  Wink
To the extent that a solo soprano is added to the string ensemble in its finale, it is no more exceedingly unusual than Schönberg's F# minor quartet (and that's no piece of cake either)...

Best,

Alistair
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richard barrett
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« Reply #11 on: 18:26:04, 01-10-2007 »

Ollie's posting of a Biber CD cover yesterday prompted me to think that the whole current of 17th century instrumental music whose summation his work in a sense represents was more or less completely unperformed before HIPsters like Harnoncourt began paying attention to it, and my impression is that this music would sound lethally dull if played "as written" (ie. as that might apply to music written between 1750 and 1900) on instruments built for completely different sonic/expressive purposes. Historically, this more "obscure" music (and indeed more "obscure" works by the "great composers" of earlier periods) was relatively extensively recorded before HIP treatments of the already established canon became widespread. I can imagine Harnoncourt and Wenzinger and their collagues back in the 1950s thinking to themselves "this music can't have sounded so boring at the time - why not try reconstructing what it originally sounded like and then maybe we'll find it isn't boring at all" - which they did. Perhaps it was only later that they had the idea of applying similar principles to more well-known music.
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ahinton
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« Reply #12 on: 21:34:21, 01-10-2007 »

No one here has yet mentioned either HIP replacement surgery or those beyond-absurd creations of our what's-that-Browning government commonly known as Home Information Packs; I suppose that it would not have been especially hip to mention either. OK, so now back to the subject following my wholly unwarranted but at least mercifully brief intrusion...

Seriously, though - what does anyone here think about how to approach this problem in respect of composers in whose work a performing tradition only begins to develop way after his/her death? - I am thinking of Alkan, Godowsky and Sorabji in particular, in which instances one cannot realistically think or talk about the ways in which the music was performed at or around the time of composition...

Best,

Alistair

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Colin Holter
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« Reply #13 on: 21:48:28, 01-10-2007 »

This isn't exactly mainstream repertoire, but I always find HIP renditions of aleatorically theatrical pieces from the 1960s and '70s interesting:  When such pieces as Wolff's For One, Two, or Three People or some of Cage's Variations are mounted, you can usually tell right off the bat whether the performers are aiming for a "happening-like" (i.e. HIP) interpretation or a "textual" one divorced from the '60s performance conventions of such works.  I don't know whether this literature is popular in the UK, although I assume that performances of Cardew's Treatise, for instance, happen from time to time–does this performance practice question come up in that context?
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #14 on: 21:56:11, 01-10-2007 »

the use of counter-tenors
That's an interesting one though. I would certainly be the last to dismiss the whole counter-tenor thing as an important development in performance; performances by various counter-tenors have given me a great deal of pleasure and musical fulfilment. (Indeed some of my best friends are counter-tenors. Well, one of them anyway.)

But the counter-tenor, in the sense of a mature male voice on alto parts singing in falsetto throughout the range, is as far as I know not something that's strictly 'authentic' in any period, at least not as the 'rule'. Bach's altos were boys; Handel's male altos were mainly castrati; French male altos (and for that matter Monteverdi's) were tenors using falsetto at the top as an exception (helped by a vocal approach which allowed the registers to be more seamlessly blended), not throughout the range. Purcell might have had falsettists for some parts, but for higher ones, certainly not for things like 'Tis Nature's Voice.

It's just that the English cathedral choirs had counter-tenors on the alto parts, so period performances which sprung from that tradition used them too. I'm not sorry though. It would be a poor soul indeed who could resist Michael Chance's Es ist vollbracht. Smiley
« Last Edit: 21:57:47, 01-10-2007 by oliver sudden » Logged
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