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Tony Watson
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« Reply #15 on: 01:04:59, 26-10-2007 » |
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Perhaps we could move on to seven in the bar now...
I nominate the second theme in Bernstein's Candide overture (although some editions give it as alternating 4/4, 3/4 bars, which I think should be allowed).
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thompson1780
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« Reply #16 on: 10:22:31, 26-10-2007 » |
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Just going back to fives - isn't the scherzo from Tchaikovsky's little Russian essentially in 5, even though it is written in 3? (Maybe pushing it a bit far, as its a sort of 5 bar phrase, but as it's in 1 beat to a bar, that sort of means 5 beats to a phrase).
Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
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Notoriously Bombastic
Posts: 181
Never smile at the brass
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« Reply #17 on: 01:04:29, 27-10-2007 » |
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Perhaps we could move on to seven in the bar now...
I nominate the second theme in Bernstein's Candide overture (although some editions give it as alternating 4/4, 3/4 bars, which I think should be allowed).
Oh, Bernstein is great at 7s. I think the soprano sax tune in Slava tops Candide, perhaps it's the busier accompaniment?. The 'waltz' in 7/8 from the Divertimento is rather sweet, and grouped in 322 for a change. I've only ever seen Candide (overture) in 2/2 and 3/2, but the tune is certainly in 7/2. Bernstein even gets it wrong at one point (in the repeated section just after the brass/timpani) where there are two 7/2 bars that he writes in 2/2 all the way through, which is authentic ignore-the-conductor territory. NB |
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Notoriously Bombastic
Posts: 181
Never smile at the brass
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« Reply #18 on: 01:05:54, 27-10-2007 » |
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...and straight on to 11/8 and 13/8.
Marching up the aisle with a wooden leg. Anybody else on the same wavelength?
NB
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MT Wessel
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« Reply #19 on: 02:02:39, 27-10-2007 » |
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...and straight on to 11/8 and 13/8. Marching up the aisle with a wooden leg. Anybody else on the same wavelength? NB Arrrrgh. Shiver me timbres. Wheres me crotchet. "Pieces of eight". "Pieces of eight". Shut up or it's the plank for thee Syd lad. ... Er. Is that it? No. Probably not?  |
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lignum crucis arbour scientiae
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #21 on: 10:20:55, 27-10-2007 » |
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Here is Hull: All we would add is that five beats still feel forced and unnatural at least to us. Beloved of Strawinscy Bartok and outlandish creatures like that, but we wonder how many bars in quintuple time really first-rate composers like Bach Mozart Beethoven Schumann and Brahms felt the need to write. . . . |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #22 on: 11:06:05, 27-10-2007 » |
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The magnificent build-up to the climax of the Tallis Fantasia by Vaughan Williams owes a great deal of its effect to its quintuple rhythm. Oddly enough it isn't barred in 5 - although the phrases are grouped in 5 they sail merrily across the 3/4 bars...
...and ach, where's Ian when you need him? I'm sure there's a Brahms piano trio with a 5/4 or 7/4 movement but I can't dredge up a more detailed memory.
From two Old Masters:
Christopher Tye, Trust (in 5)
John Bull, In Nomine (in 11)
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« Last Edit: 11:09:48, 27-10-2007 by oliver sudden »
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #23 on: 11:22:16, 27-10-2007 » |
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Did Tye or Bull themselves actually place such time-sigs at the start of their work... or are they the additions of their modern transcribers? Isn't it rather the case that modern addiction to down-beats represents a simplification of rhythmic conventions that existed prior to barlines? Much of the ars subtilior material so often quoted here is simpler in realisation without barlines than with.. its "shocking" effect arises as much from its transgression of our notational "crutch" with barlines as anything else  |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Notoriously Bombastic
Posts: 181
Never smile at the brass
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« Reply #24 on: 11:26:49, 27-10-2007 » |
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We invoke Syd and he appears. Spooky. All we would add is that five beats still feel forced and unnatural at least to us. Beloved of Strawinscy Bartok and outlandish creatures like that, but we wonder how many bars in quintuple time really first-rate composers like Bach Mozart Beethoven Schumann and Brahms felt the need to write. . . .
The thought of a 5/4 adagio in a Mozart wind divertimento is intriguing. It's possible that Brahms may have implied one at some point - he had quite a disregard for barlines, although normally that just involved shifting everything about by a beat. There's also Percy Grainger. Two of the movements of Lincolnshire Posy do some fun things with time signatures. Of course Grainger being Grainger he writes 2 1/2 / 4 rather than 5 / 8... The only players that are likely to balk at those rhythms are seasoned professional bandsmen, who think more of their beer than of their music.
Mine's a Worthington.
And on a lighter note, the 3322 pattern of Take 5 is also used in the themes to Mission: Impossible and The Incredibles. NB |
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Notoriously Bombastic
Posts: 181
Never smile at the brass
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« Reply #25 on: 11:35:08, 27-10-2007 » |
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Did Tye or Bull themselves actually place such time-sigs at the start of their work... or are they the additions of their modern transcribers? Isn't it rather the case that modern addiction to down-beats represents a simplification of rhythmic conventions that existed prior to barlines? Much of the ars subtilior material so often quoted here is simpler in realisation without barlines than with.. its "shocking" effect arises as much from its transgression of our notational "crutch" with barlines as anything else About the Bull: This extraordinary experiment in rhythm is marked only with the barred semicircle, and the arrangement of bars is as indicated by the continuous lines; the dotted lines are supplied until the bottom line of p. 35, when the arrangement of the MS is followed, marking off, as it were, a little bar of 3-4 time from the larger bar of 8-4 time. Later on, from p. 37, line 3 onwards, the larger bar is divided into two halves of common time, an arrangement which holds good until p. 39, when each of the crotchets is divided into three quavers. It is worth noting how truly the rhythm is kept throughout the piece.
So yes, it seems that the MS is barred in a mixture of 11/4 , 8/4 + 3/4 , 4/4 + 4/4 + 3/4, 12/8 + 12/8 + 9/8 The CF stays in the bass part throughout the piece. NB |
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« Last Edit: 11:37:41, 27-10-2007 by Notoriously Bombastic »
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martle
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« Reply #26 on: 11:38:52, 27-10-2007 » |
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And on a lighter note, the 3322 pattern of Take 5 is also used in the themes to Mission: Impossible and The Incredibles.
NB
That's only true of the original Mission: Impossible theme, NB (by Lalo Schifrin) for the tv series. In the recent movie blockbusters, they flatten it out to 4 in the bar (presumably to make it more 'danceable' in the clubs, and thereby robbing it of its character entirely). |
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Green. Always green.
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #27 on: 11:52:31, 27-10-2007 » |
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I'm sure there's a Brahms piano trio with a 5/4 or 7/4 movement but I can't dredge up a more detailed memory.
I don't know about the piano trios, but there is a song in which Brahms uses 5/4 metre: As Brahms's songs mature, he shows fluency in the song-form. His folk songs have two characteristics: they are advanced in technique and evoke emotions from his poignant past. In Mädchenlied, Opus 85, No. 3, a setting of a translation of a Serbian poem, "the combination of art and folk, experience and innocence, sounds like the mating of naive young melodies with old and knowing accompaniments" (6: 50). The poem, set in two strophic verses, tells of a girl who asks the rose why it blooms when she has no one to pick it for. Interestingly, Brahms uses a 5/4 meter with a rather complex 2 against 3 rhythmic pattern in the introduction and coda. In studies done later by Kodaly and Bartok, it was proven that folk-dance music often uses these more complex rhythms. (from here: http://www.calstatela.edu/centers/Wagner/brahms.htm) |
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Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency
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Notoriously Bombastic
Posts: 181
Never smile at the brass
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« Reply #28 on: 11:57:25, 27-10-2007 » |
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And on a lighter note, the 3322 pattern of Take 5 is also used in the themes to Mission: Impossible and The Incredibles.
NB
That's only true of the original Mission: Impossible theme, NB (by Lalo Schifrin) for the tv series. In the recent movie blockbusters, they flatten it out to 4 in the bar (presumably to make it more 'danceable' in the clubs, and thereby robbing it of its character entirely). Indeed. And since 2222 would sound like a march it becomes 333322. Get on with it! NB |
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opilec
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« Reply #29 on: 12:17:00, 27-10-2007 » |
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Here's a favourite which I discovered myself. It's from Act 1 of Jenůfa, the scene between Jenůfa and Števa after the departure of the crowd following the big mid-act ensembles. If you look carefully, you'll see that this 4/8 passage was originally written in 5/8. Among other things, the semiquaver beams have clearly been added, and the 4 in the time signature replaces a scratched-out 5. This passage has never been heard in its 5/8 form: Janáček had already made the change to 4/8 by the time the original orchestral parts were copied in late 1903. No one seems to have noticed this before.  I'll get my anorak now ... |
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