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Tony Watson
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« Reply #30 on: 13:11:38, 27-10-2007 » |
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Re reply 16, I don't know whether the scherzo of Tchaikovsky's symphony 2 is in five bar phrases or not, but it sounds irregular to me.
Rimsky-Korsakov's Suite from The Snow Maiden is worth exploring for anyone interested in this sort of thing. The Dance of the Birds (2nd movement) is in 14-note phrases. I haven't seen the score for a while but I think it's notated in 4/4 time with a comment that it can be thought of as being in 7/2 time. The Dance of the Clowns (4th movement) has something similar going on too.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #31 on: 18:09:56, 27-10-2007 » |
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5/4 crops up a lot in English folk songs as notated by Cecil Sharp: In Chester Town there lived a brisk young widow.
So it is hardly surprising if Vaughn Williams uses it, for example in the Hereford Carol This is the truth sent from above which opens his Fantasia on Christmas Carols.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #32 on: 19:14:35, 27-10-2007 » |
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5/4 also turns up in traditional Russian folksong, even as recently as those which emerged out of the WW1 trenches like "Na pole tanki grokhotalis'" ("The tanks were groaning on the battlefield"), which is in alternating 5/4 and 7/4. There's still heaps of Macedonian music in 11/16 and 13/16 that's in the "live" repertoire... it's not just in Bartok's collections  The players were brought up with it, and find these metres absolutely normal and extremely pleasant to play. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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opilec
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« Reply #33 on: 19:27:36, 27-10-2007 » |
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The players were brought up with it, and find these metres absolutely normal and extremely pleasant to play.
Whereas I had huge problems getting a group of students at one of the UK's "top" [sic] music departments to play the septuplet ostinatos in Ligeti's Six Bagatelles for wind quintet.  |
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #34 on: 23:59:20, 27-10-2007 » |
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I had huge problems getting a group of students at one of the UK's "top" music departments to play the septuplet ostinatos in Ligeti's Six Bagatelles for wind quintet. The huge problems we venture to suggest arose not so much from the septuplets per se but rather from the fact that the composer is a seventh-rater, one who sets out with the express intention of irritating his listeners and (in this case) his performers. In other words, the students' native taste over-rode their mere technique. They refused to take seriously Ligeti's continental tomfooleries and (as the phrase goes) good luck to them! |
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #35 on: 00:03:13, 28-10-2007 » |
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Whereas I had huge problems getting a group of students at one of the UK's "top" [sic] music departments to play the septuplet ostinatos in Ligeti's Six Bagatelles for wind quintet. Oh gawd. Funny thing is you could probably have taught it to them by ear... In the original piano version (in Musica Ricercata) the left hand has the septuplets while the melodic material is supposed to be played freely over the top. The Brahms is the 3rd piano trio: there's a movement in 3+2+2/4. 7/4 in other words, er, numbers. |
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #36 on: 00:14:19, 28-10-2007 » |
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When I was at school we used to sing a song called Shenandoah ("Oh, shenandoah, I long to hear you..."). The thing was, some bars were in 4/4 and others in 3/4 and selected pupils had to get up and beat time in front of the class. I wonder how many famous conductors started that way.
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #37 on: 00:22:23, 28-10-2007 » |
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I've just thought of Holst's music for The Perfect Fool, in 7/8 or 7/4 time. I like it but try to imagine it in triple time with a bit of pulling about and it becomes rather banal.
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MT Wessel
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« Reply #38 on: 01:09:22, 28-10-2007 » |
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and it becomes rather banal. Exactly. For the Sun sets in on the West and rises in the East .. |
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« Last Edit: 01:28:11, 28-10-2007 by MT Wessel »
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lignum crucis arbour scientiae
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #40 on: 16:11:12, 28-10-2007 » |
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At least I think it should be in 7/4, or at least 4/4 + 3/4, but here's a site that prints it all in 4/4, to no real advantage as far as I can see:
It's only a notational convention, I wouldn't worry too much... what would happen if you took away barlines completely? Nothing  They simply mark-off sets of beats for the eye. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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C Dish
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« Reply #42 on: 04:11:35, 29-10-2007 » |
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Did Tye or Bull themselves actually place such time-sigs at the start of their work... or are they the additions of their modern transcribers? Isn't it rather the case that modern addiction to down-beats represents a simplification of rhythmic conventions that existed prior to barlines? Much of the ars subtilior material so often quoted here is simpler in realisation without barlines than with.. its "shocking" effect arises as much from its transgression of our notational "crutch" with barlines as anything else Well, no meter indications, but Tye does consistently notate the slowest voice in Whole notes plus quarter notes. He doesn't use ties, of course, because they also did not exist. To transcribe into modern notation without using 5/4 makes little sense... but then transcribing into modern notation has never been a nod toward the best way of doing things anyway, just a way to make the text reasonably accessible to casual modern readers. then again, I don't know the Bull example. Glad it was mentioned! |
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inert fig here
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C Dish
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« Reply #43 on: 04:13:31, 29-10-2007 » |
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Warning! This site opens 1 million pop-up windows! |
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inert fig here
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #44 on: 04:39:52, 29-10-2007 » |
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To transcribe into modern notation without using 5/4 makes little sense... but then transcribing into modern notation has never been a nod toward the best way of doing things anyway
Completely agreed, and it can be extremely enlightening to perform these pieces (for study purposes, rather than necessarily in concert) from barless notation - the "barline imperative" of the military bandsman evaporates, resulting in a much more transparent texture. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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