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Author Topic: So what is your definition of Music?  (Read 1060 times)
thompson1780
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« on: 18:07:42, 28-11-2007 »

Sorry if this sort of thing is already elsewhere on the forum, but I couldn't find it.

The recent differences of opinion about MLK's events made me wonder what music is.

I haven't got to a definition I'm happy with yet, but maybe you have?

Can we please not try to reach one answer between us.  It's fine by me if we all have different boundaries between music and non-music.

So, in your view, does music need to involve sound?  Deliberately manufactured or accidental? Planned?

And time?  Does Music have to have a variation through time?  Would one note played forever be music?  Does music need a beginning and/or and end?

What is noise that isn't music?

Tommo
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increpatio
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« Reply #1 on: 18:13:40, 28-11-2007 »

Would one note played forever be music? 
One note played forever would still vary over time.  Sound itself is dynamic and kinetic, in principle.  The effect can be constant.

I'm pretty happy, with terms like 'art' and 'music' to allow people their own personal definitions; for me it's something that relates in some way to the established musical tradition.

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roslynmuse
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« Reply #2 on: 18:23:55, 28-11-2007 »

and let's not get bogged down with what makes "good" and "bad" music...  Wink
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martle
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« Reply #3 on: 18:25:34, 28-11-2007 »

and let's not get bogged down with what makes "good" and "bad" music...  Wink

Amen to that, ros.  Roll Eyes
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increpatio
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« Reply #4 on: 18:27:49, 28-11-2007 »

and let's not get bogged down with what makes "good" and "bad" music...  Wink

This is an issue for some.  I think such moral judgements are better pronounced on the composers, after a rigorous psychiatric assessment, of course.

The question of 'importance' is similarly thorny, but 'influentialness' is something more objectively assessable, and something I'm more comfortable with generally.
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autoharp
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« Reply #5 on: 18:37:57, 28-11-2007 »


Would one note played forever be music? 

Tommo

La Monte Young's Composition 1960 #10 Draw a straight line and follow it has been realised as one very long note.

Cage's book Silence contains possible pointers, especially the articles entitled The future of music: credo and Experimental music.

My copy fell open at this paragraph (from the latter article):

"And what is the purpose of writing music? One is, of course, not dealing with purposes but dealing with sounds. Or the answer must take the form of paradox: a purposeful purposeless or a purposeless play. This play, however, is an affirmation of life - not an attempt to bring order out of chaos nor to suggest improvements in creation, but simply waking up to the very life we're living, which is so excellent once one get's one's mind and desires out of its way and lets it act of its own accord."

Which is not a definition, but just a paragraph which I thought may be of interest . . .
« Last Edit: 18:41:17, 28-11-2007 by autoharp » Logged
George Garnett
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« Reply #6 on: 18:46:57, 28-11-2007 »

I'm quite happy with "organised sounds and silences" as a working definition.

FWIW I think the intentional aspect is crucial for something usefully to be called music but I remember from last time we had a go at this (TOP? here? can't remember) that not everyone agreed with that by any means.
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autoharp
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« Reply #7 on: 19:00:08, 28-11-2007 »

Intent on whose part, George ?
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martle
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« Reply #8 on: 19:05:20, 28-11-2007 »

I'm quite happy with "organised sounds and silences" as a working definition.

FWIW I think the intentional aspect is crucial for something usefully to be called music but I remember from last time we had a go at this (TOP? here? can't remember) that not everyone agreed with that by any means.

Broadly with George there, but as auto implies the 'intention' needn't be the composer's (or the performer's, assuming the music has either); which is of course one of the many wonders of 4'33''. The music in between those two time points can be intended by anyone wishing it to be so.

Also, I'd take a nice, flabby definition of 'organised' here. The organising can be of a fairly passive kind.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #9 on: 19:06:58, 28-11-2007 »

I'm quite happy with "organised sounds and silences" as a working definition.
I'm not. (There you go: it takes all sorts ...)

Perhaps I could be convinced to accept 'organised or giving the impression of being organised' - after all, 'organised' begs the question 'How do we know?'

Here's a poem by Seamus Heaney, which just popped into my head unbidden (I hope I've remembered it more or less accurately). It's called 'Song', funnily enough:

A rowan like a lipsticked girl.
Between the main road and the by-road
Alder trees at a wet and dripping distance
Stand off among the rushes.

There are the mud-flowers of dialect
And the immortelles of perfect pitch,
And that moment when the bird sings very close
To the music of what happens.


Now, that's a metaphorical usage of the word 'music', obviously. But I'm not sure we'd accept it at all if it didn't bear some relation to our ordinary sense of the word.

Re intention, I would have thought the intention of the listener is at least as important as that of the composer (which, like 'organisation', is not something we ever know for certain).


Added: Oh, I see autoh and martle got there before me on intention.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #10 on: 19:09:31, 28-11-2007 »

Intent on whose part, George ?

Ah, good point, I wasn't clear. I meant on the part of the creator of the music, the composer or performer or whatever.

Interestingly I think it was a composer (Richard in fact) who was keener to put the listener to the sounds at the centre of the definition of what counted as 'music'. As a listener, I'd put the creator of them there. Perhaps we were both just being modest. Smiley  
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #11 on: 19:11:15, 28-11-2007 »

I've indeed long been of the view that the required organisation can in some cases even be exclusively on the receiving end of things. As in the old Cage story where a listener says what a wonderful structure such and such a piece has to which he replies 'well, I didn't put it there'...

And of course:

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

As I said a couple of days back, I reckon if it's good enough for God it's good enough for music. Smiley


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martle
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« Reply #12 on: 19:13:09, 28-11-2007 »

Interestingly I think it was a composer (Richard in fact) who was keener to put the listener to the sounds at the centre of the definition of what counted as 'music'. As a listener, I'd put the creator of them there. Perhaps we were both just being modest.  

That (Richard's) is what I meant in a fumbly way, so it's composers ganging up on listeners so far.  Grin Mind you, composers are listeners too. The uncomfortable bit is that I think we're suggesting that in a perceptual sense the opposite is true too.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #13 on: 19:27:26, 28-11-2007 »


Now, that's a metaphorical usage of the word 'music', obviously. But I'm not sure we'd accept it at all if it didn't bear some relation to our ordinary sense of the word.

Well, again FWIW, I agree. That is a metaphorical use of the word, like the music of the sea, or the music of a tap dripping. It is 'as if' music. 'As if' intentional. (Or if we happen to think that Neptune or the Tap God are behind it, then actually intentional, but we have generally come to think of them as metaphors too).

I think that is a more useful way of looking at it than a definition which includes all and any sounds as 'music'. The latter is too general to serve its purpose. (And I think good old 4' 33" counts as music on my definition. Ask Mike Batt  Cheesy. But don't we lose points for mentioning 4' 33" or am I getting it muddled up with Hitler?)

But, also FWIW, I don't think it actually matters very much how 'music' is defined. Nothing of any great moment turns on it. It isn't as if it is a concept at the centre of any fundamental theory which needs to be precise. It's a bit like worrying about using the word 'hedge' before you have pinned down exactly where hedges stop and 'two or three bushes gathered together' start.   
« Last Edit: 09:14:49, 03-12-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
time_is_now
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« Reply #14 on: 19:41:28, 28-11-2007 »

I don't think it actually matters very much how 'music' is defined. Nothing of any great moment turns on it. It isn't as if it is a concept at the centre of any fundamental theory which needs to be precise. It's a bit like worrying about using the word 'hedge' before you have pinned down exactly where hedges stop and 'two or three bushes gathered together' start.   
I certainly agree with you there, George, although I wouldn't have explained it so well!

Also:
Quote
don't we lose points for mentioning 4' 33" or am I getting it muddled up with Hitler?
Cheesy Cheesy You're getting far too funny for your own good, young man. What with this, and Ramsgate, and the custard (which I too haven't forgotten ...).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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