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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #240 on: 11:45:02, 01-06-2008 »

What is all this talk of harpsichords? Is the member unaware that harpsichords - and pianos too for that matter - have long been vieux jeu among the crackpots? When the voices are differentiated do not aspects and properties hitherto undreamed-of emerge?

To-day's offering is the C sharp minor Prelude from Book I, arranged for flute, brass band, and one or two other nameless instruments. We seem to remember that Schoenberg had something to say somewhere about the clash of B natural against B sharp in bar twenty-nine, but cannot find it at present. (Rapid-share / send-space).

In Tovey's notes to this Prelude we read this, wherein we have to say he "loses" us after the first line: "Climaxes may be externally recognised by the presence of ledger-lines [he ignorantly spells them "leger"] below the bass stave, such notes being best dealt with on the clavichord as the result of a crescendo. But on the piano-forte it is hardly less dangerous to force the tone in Bach's pathetic melodies than on the clavichord."

Only yesterday, though, we read this in regard to the crescendo:

. . . in Bach's day dynamics were 'terraced'. A 'forte' passage may be followed by a 'piano' one (sometimes merely as an echoing phrase, and sometimes as a structural contrast between one section and another). But these different dynamic levels were not yet bridged by the use of crescendo or diminuendo passages wherein one dynamic became transmogrified (or 'morphed') into the other!

So what can Tovey be going on about? Why a clavichord all of a sudden? Could clavichords do crescendi but harpsichords not? Are we back with the Bebungs, tangents, and even shared strings? It is all so confusing for a simple crackpot.
« Last Edit: 12:18:01, 01-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
increpatio
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« Reply #241 on: 12:43:44, 01-06-2008 »

Might I offer a complement to your contrbution in the form of a performance of the same prelude by dear old Ralph, playing on the claviwhatsit, here.
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Baz
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« Reply #242 on: 13:00:32, 01-06-2008 »

What is all this talk of harpsichords? Is the member unaware that harpsichords - and pianos too for that matter - have long been vieux jeu among the crackpots? When the voices are differentiated do not aspects and properties hitherto undreamed-of emerge?

To-day's offering is the C sharp minor Prelude from Book I, arranged for flute, brass band, and one or two other nameless instruments. We seem to remember that Schoenberg had something to say somewhere about the clash of B natural against B sharp in bar twenty-nine, but cannot find it at present. (Rapid-share / send-space).

In Tovey's notes to this Prelude we read this, wherein we have to say he "loses" us after the first line: "Climaxes may be externally recognised by the presence of ledger-lines [he ignorantly spells them "leger"] below the bass stave, such notes being best dealt with on the clavichord as the result of a crescendo. But on the piano-forte it is hardly less dangerous to force the tone in Bach's pathetic melodies than on the clavichord."

Only yesterday, though, we read this in regard to the crescendo:

. . . in Bach's day dynamics were 'terraced'. A 'forte' passage may be followed by a 'piano' one (sometimes merely as an echoing phrase, and sometimes as a structural contrast between one section and another). But these different dynamic levels were not yet bridged by the use of crescendo or diminuendo passages wherein one dynamic became transmogrified (or 'morphed') into the other!

So what can Tovey be going on about? Why a clavichord all of a sudden? Could clavichords do crescendi but harpsichords not? Are we back with the Bebungs, tangents, and even shared strings? It is all so confusing for a simple crackpot.


Mr Grew - as usual Tovey is making an entirely academic point here. As he must have realised, on the clavichord (which like the pianoforte is capable of differing dynamics according to note-attack), while the smallest dynamic is pppp, the greatest is still only ppp!

I doubt, therefore, that such subtle dynamic gradations were ever likely to have impinged greatly upon the ears and senses of a player whose ears needed to be within 2 feet of the strings to hear them at all! As for any audience - well, they might just as well have watched Joseph Cooper bashing away on his silent keyboard.

Baz  Grin Grin Grin
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Baz
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« Reply #243 on: 13:33:24, 01-06-2008 »


In Tovey's notes to this Prelude we read this, wherein we have to say he "loses" us after the first line: "Climaxes may be externally recognised by the presence of ledger-lines [he ignorantly spells them "leger"] below the bass stave...

Pray tell us Mr Grew why you censure Tovey for spelling 'leger' in the correct and normal manner rather than in the implanted-d version you prefer. While the COD identifies the main entry leger as a variant of 'ledger', music dictionaries and reference works invariably use the d-less version as the default spelling. What has changed?

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #244 on: 14:30:48, 01-06-2008 »

To-day's offering is the C sharp minor Prelude from Book I, arranged for flute, brass band, and one or two other nameless instruments. We seem to remember that Schoenberg had something to say somewhere about the clash of B natural against B sharp in bar twenty-nine, but cannot find it at present. (Rapid-share / send-space).

In Tovey's notes ...

An interesting essay (= 'try') Mr Grew - lending ever-new possible insights into this fascinating piece.

I note that you adhere verbatim to the Tovey edition, and must ask you one thing therefore (since, like him, you must bear the burden of the blame):

Editors who insert ornamentation into Baroque (and other) music normally have the courtesy to enclose them in square brackets. Here, however, we see courtesy transformed into discourtesy, noting that (unusually) ALL the ornaments that BACH himself bothered to insert into his score have (by Tovey) themselves been enclosed in square brackets! So far from indicating that the square brackets indicate an editorial confiscation of the composer's own chosen ornaments, the innocent student (including I assume yourself) has assumed that these accretions are Tovey's own and can safely be disregarded if one chooses. I am sure that you must share my distaste that you were duped in this manner, and chose (unwisely) to omit ornaments you innocently assumed to be Tovey's rather than Bach's. (My goodness me - 'editors' have a lot to answer for don't they?!)

Now in point of FACT these elaborate ornaments are essential, and impinge greatly upon the perceived tempo to be adopted. (In this regard, Mr Grew, you come out 'tops', because the tempo you have chosen - through sheer and uncanny musical instinct - is undoubtedly entirely the correct one. But what is sadly missing is all the ornamentation so carefully and (very unusually) painstakingly inserted by Bach!)

I should suggest, therefore, that the musical substance and integrity might be transformed by restoring these embellishments, and making an attempt to articulate them in the manner that Bach himself indicated.

As an example, here is a performance by GUSTAV.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #245 on: 15:42:34, 01-06-2008 »

Might I offer a complement to your contrbution in the form of a performance of the same prelude by dear old Ralph, playing on the claviwhatsit, here.

We are most grateful to Mr. Patio for this interesting contribution; the unexpected ornaments in particular we find fascinating!

Pray tell us Mr Grew why you censure Tovey for spelling 'leger' in the correct and normal manner rather than in the implanted-d version you prefer. While the COD identifies the main entry leger as a variant of 'ledger', music dictionaries and reference works invariably use the d-less version as the default spelling. What has changed?

It is simply that when in doubt we adhere to the Oxford English Dictionary. Therein "leger" appears only as an "obsolete form of 'ledger'". It is also therein stated that "the origin of the use of 'ledger' in 'ledger-line' is not clear; perhaps the word may be the noun used attributively with allusion to the sense of a horizontal timber in a scaffolding which supports the putlogs, or of a wooden rod laid across a thatch to hold it in place. The common statement that it represents the French léger, light, slight, is baseless." We know that Percy Scholes and all those people have it as "leger" but they are all wrong! The point is really clear at once upon consideration of the common pronunciation of the word is it not.

I should suggest, therefore, that the musical substance and integrity might be transformed by restoring these embellishments, and making an attempt to articulate them in the manner that Bach himself indicated.

You are right Mr. Baziron; the absence of certain ornaments! You have put your finger on a not inconsiderable shortcoming. But in the case of this Prelude the anonymous crackpot used Harold Brooke's Novello edition, which rightly or wrongly contains no embellishments at all!

Brooke notes in his Preface that "There are no notes in these pages that Bach himself has not set down," and adds "The ornaments in the old music are a study in themselves, for which purpose Dannreuther's book on 'Musical Ornamentation,' and Arnold Dolmetsch's 'The Interpretation of the Music of the 17th and 18th Centuries' are recommended. The earnest student will do well also to acquaint himself with the general principles of Bach phrasing and Bach interpretation set forth in Albert Schweitzer's 'J.S. Bach'." We suppose that could be called a "cop-out" could it?
« Last Edit: 16:02:06, 01-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #246 on: 16:17:08, 01-06-2008 »

As an example, here is a performance by GUSTAV.

Very nice indeed! May we ask the member to post also Gustav's performance of the great accompanying C sharp minor Fugue which is due to come up for discussion to-morrow?
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Baz
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« Reply #247 on: 16:19:14, 01-06-2008 »

...But in the case of this Prelude the anonymous crackpot used Harold Brooke's Novello edition, which rightly or wrongly contains no embellishments at all!

Brooke notes in his Preface that "There are no notes in these pages that Bach himself has not set down," and adds "The ornaments in the old music are a study in themselves, for which purpose Dannreuther's book on 'Musical Ornamentation,' and Arnold Dolmetsch's 'The Interpretation of the Music of the 17th and 18th Centuries' are recommended. The earnest student will do well also to acquaint himself with the general principles of Bach phrasing and Bach interpretation set forth in Albert Schweitzer's 'J.S. Bach'." We suppose that could be called a "cop-out" could it?


Editors should always be responsible and realiable! Telling only half-truths, or being 'economical' with the truth are only two ways of being deliberately deceptive to those who are innocent believers. Brooke is certainly true when he says that "There are no notes in these pages that Bach himself has not set down". But he has not said the other half of the truth: "many of the notes that Bach himself wrote are not set down in these pages". Had he shown the honesty to say that, then intelligent and discerning students such as yourself would surely have consigned his edition to the scrap heap (where it belongs) and sought out a more trustworthy source from which to study the great master.

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #248 on: 16:30:53, 01-06-2008 »

As an example, here is a performance by GUSTAV.

Very nice indeed! May we ask the member to post also Gustav's performance of the great accompanying C sharp minor Fugue which is due to come up for discussion to-morrow?


C# Minor fugue (Bk 1 - Gustav)

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #249 on: 10:29:30, 02-06-2008 »

The C sharp minor Fugue from Book I of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, one of the most memorable and majestic high-lights of the whole set, is written in five parts (rapid-share / send-space). It benefits greatly from the crackpot treatment, which allows the long notes in each part to be sustained for their full value. There are many examples thereof which last longer than one bar, a good many over two bars, and towards the end there are notes sustained for more than four bars, even. Gustav (thank you so much Mr. I) attempts to bring out some of the resultant verticalities, but is forced into an unseemly haste - he dashes through in four minutes, compared to the crackpot's six. His performance sounds like that of a wild, frenetic, frantic man and we have not heard anything like it elsewhere ever!

No, this Fugue represents fundamentally Bach the Elgarian; its mood is solemn and noble throughout. He conceived it too we think as one continuous crescendo - in which aspect it does not overmuch differ from Ravel's Bolero may we not say? A musical tension begins with the first note and is not resolved until the last.

It was through attempting this fine Fugue on the piano-forte that the idea of "doing" all these works electronically first came to our crackpot - this was his initiation, his revelation, his jumping-off point! Incidentally the attentive listener may detect here (but nowhere else) a moment of changing of the gears, rather in the style of of Wanda's changing of gears on her own primitive equipment.
« Last Edit: 10:47:28, 02-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #250 on: 11:22:42, 02-06-2008 »

The C sharp minor Fugue from Book I of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier, one of the most memorable and majestic high-lights of the whole set, is written in five parts (rapid-share / send-space). It benefits greatly from the crackpot treatment, which allows the long notes in each part to be sustained for their full value. There are many examples thereof which last longer than one bar, a good many over two bars, and towards the end there are notes sustained for more than four bars, even. Gustav (thank you so much Mr. I) attempts to bring out some of the resultant verticalities, but is forced into an unseemly haste - he dashes through in four minutes, compared to the crackpot's six. His performance sounds like that of a wild, frenetic, frantic man and we have not heard anything like it elsewhere ever!

No, this Fugue represents fundamentally Bach the Elgarian; its mood is solemn and noble throughout. He conceived it too we think as one continuous crescendo - in which aspect it does not overmuch differ from Ravel's Bolero may we not say? A musical tension begins with the first note and is not resolved until the last.

It was through attempting this fine Fugue on the piano-forte that the idea of "doing" all these works electronically first came to our crackpot - this was his initiation, his revelation, his jumping-off point! Incidentally the attentive listener may detect here (but nowhere else) a moment of changing of the gears, rather in the style of of Wanda's changing of gears on her own primitive equipment.


I haven't listened to Mr Grew's crackpot version yet, but suspect that when I do I shall find it too slow for a steady Alla breve movement. He feels Gustav's 4-minute affair too fast, although it seems to me to be a little reserved in tempo, indeed holding back somewhat when the third (lively) theme enters the ring.

But if Mr Grew finds Gustav's performance too fast, what on earth will he make of LEON'S we wonder? He gets through it in no more than 3' 05"!

Here Leon provides what is (for him) an unusually polished and vibrant performance, really feeling the growing excitement of the music. Despite a minor lapse of concentration near the very end (where his inner parts get into a temporary muddle) it has to be said (surely!) that this is "his finest hour"!

Baz
« Last Edit: 12:57:52, 02-06-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #251 on: 13:07:48, 02-06-2008 »

But if Mr Grew finds Gustav's performance too fast, what on earth will he make of LEON'S we wonder? He gets through it in no more than 3' 05"!

Here Leon provides what is (for him) an unusually polished and vibrant performance, really feeling the growing excitement of the music. Despite a minor lapse of concentration near the very end (where his inner parts get into a temporary muddle) it has to be said (surely!) that this is "his finest hour"!

But - so much is lost at the speed of the dashing Dutchman! For example:

  • the other-worldly harmony in bars nineteen to twenty-one
  • the minim B in the bass below the C sharp pedal in bar twenty-nine
  • the second-subject quavers which begin at bar thirty-six - they must be leisurely must not they?
  • the grand statement on the bass at bar seventy-three
  • the harmony at bar one hundred and two needs to be savoured
  • and a drawing-out does no harm at all to the final few bars!

We cannot accept the flashing past half-heard or wholly unheard of all that! So now we shall have to go through all our little collection of executants looking for another slowish one . . .
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Baz
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« Reply #252 on: 15:26:29, 02-06-2008 »

But if Mr Grew finds Gustav's performance too fast, what on earth will he make of LEON'S we wonder? He gets through it in no more than 3' 05"!

Here Leon provides what is (for him) an unusually polished and vibrant performance, really feeling the growing excitement of the music. Despite a minor lapse of concentration near the very end (where his inner parts get into a temporary muddle) it has to be said (surely!) that this is "his finest hour"!

But - so much is lost at the speed of the dashing Dutchman! For example:

  • the other-worldly harmony in bars nineteen to twenty-one
  • the minim B in the bass below the C sharp pedal in bar twenty-nine
  • the second-subject quavers which begin at bar thirty-six - they must be leisurely must not they?
  • the grand statement on the bass at bar seventy-three
  • the harmony at bar one hundred and two needs to be savoured
  • and a drawing-out does no harm at all to the final few bars!

We cannot accept the flashing past half-heard or wholly unheard of all that! So now we shall have to go through all our little collection of executants looking for another slowish one . . .


I should have preferred your crackpot version to have flowed at a proper (though dignified) Alla breve, perhaps something like the following:

SYD2

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #253 on: 11:55:57, 03-06-2008 »

That is absolutely amazing Mr. Iron. How did you do it? Did you use some sort of software?

Let us though look at a few more renditions. Here first is Unknown Artist with his super-charged giant harpsichord. He takes over six minutes, longer than our own crackpot even, and we must say we admire the power and clarity of his work. Unfortunately his identity was lost in a disc crash in May last year, but we have a strong suspicion that he is either Trevor or Bob.

In complete contrast, the version of the Northern American crackpot Glenn is simply absurd; he plays it at double speed and in a merry staccato, thus ensuring that all the worthwhile qualities of the work are entirely lost.

The version of Wanda is very nearly as slow as those both of our own house crackpot and the Unknown Artist; that is Good. The thing to remember here is that she is the only representative of that Old School which came to maturity before the invasion of anti-æsthetical microbes from space in 1908. Wanda knew Many Things that later performers were never taught. It would repay every one we think to study her rendition very very carefully. Looking at her graph in Samplitude we see a confirmation of what Mr. Iron has already told us, namely that her increases in loudness (which are considerable) take place not steadily but rather stepwise, in little jumps. Is this to be regarded as a limitation of the instrument?

Rosalyn's performance is a very peculiar one; she does not seem particularly interested in the verticalities, and Members will hear some very odd emphases indeed.

And let us now throw Angela in for good measure! Her rendition contains a great many good points.

Even if all these performers disagree with each other on the question of tempo, there is one aspect of the work upon which they are in accord: namely that it should begin quietly and end loudly (although Angela again tails off a little on the final notes).

We would be most interested to hear Ralph's performance too as comparison in this survey, if the good Mr. Patio could see his way clear . . .

But now, after all that, the crackpot contribution for to-day is the C sharp major Prelude from Book 2. We enjoy its themeless Prelude within a Prelude but its final little Fughetta not much (rapid-share / send-space).
« Last Edit: 12:13:55, 03-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #254 on: 16:14:46, 03-06-2008 »

Let us though look at a few more renditions. Here first is Unknown Artist with his super-charged giant harpsichord. He takes over six minutes, longer than our own crackpot even, and we must say we admire the power and clarity of his work. Unfortunately his identity was lost in a disc crash in May last year, but we have a strong suspicion that he is either Trevor or Bob.

In complete contrast, the version of the Northern American crackpot Glenn is simply absurd; he plays it at double speed and in a merry staccato, thus ensuring that all the worthwhile qualities of the work are entirely lost.

The version of Wanda is very nearly as slow as those both of our own house crackpot and the Unknown Artist; that is Good. The thing to remember here is that she is the only representative of that Old School which came to maturity before the invasion of anti-æsthetical microbes from space in 1908. Wanda knew Many Things that later performers were never taught. It would repay every one we think to study her rendition very very carefully. Looking at her graph in Samplitude we see a confirmation of what Mr. Iron has already told us, namely that her increases in loudness (which are considerable) take place not steadily but rather stepwise, in little jumps. Is this to be regarded as a limitation of the instrument?

Rosalyn's performance is a very peculiar one; she does not seem particularly interested in the verticalities, and Members will hear some very odd emphases indeed.

And let us now throw Angela in for good measure! Her rendition contains a great many good points.

Even if all these performers disagree with each other on the question of tempo, there is one aspect of the work upon which they are in accord: namely that it should begin quietly and end loudly (although Angela again tails off a little on the final notes).

We would be most interested to hear Ralph's performance too as comparison in this survey, if the good Mr. Patio could see his way clear . . .


Some interesting and varied performances there Mr Grew! Let us comment upon them...

The first - by the 'Unknown Artist' - stands as a beacon akin to some 'Grave of the Unknown Warrior' does not it? It is almost like music written for a Transylvanian horror film in which the unsuspecting victim - having (he supposes) innocently arrived at his hotel room - carefully opens the wardrobe to deposit his few belongings, only to be greeted by a clanging and out-of-time Waltz macabre played spontaneously by a row of unladen and unwieldly metal coat hangers! This 'performance' is carefully judged so as to elicit the greatest possible fear from the victim with the very opening note - played fortissimo with even the 16' coat hangers bashing themselves against the side of the wardrobe. "What..." he feels "...have I done to deserve this?". As he gazes transfixed at the ghostly performance, gaining pace and severity with every passing note, he waits with the greatest patience for the inevitable event of the final tierce de picardie before collapsing upon the floor in a state of emotional and physical stress.

Glenn is just Glenn - he pokes his way through as usual, although the Tempo is not really as fast as he likes to make it sound! It is, believe it or not, a fairly brisk but 'real' Alla breve.

Wanda's performance again has that Transylvanian ambience, even though her instrument sounds more like a box of paper clips than a wardrobe full of rusty coat hangers. We are left in wonderment at her innate skill in making paper clips sound so musical - but a clue lies in the way she plays the first 4 notes: listening carefully, she deliberately sustains the B# so that it gracefully harmonizes with the following E and D#. It does not matter that Bach did not indicate this manner of delivery because it makes its own valid contribution to a genuine (if rather idiosyncratic) logic. Like the other Transylvanian performance, however, no understanding of - or response to - the explicit differences in style, intent and pacing between 4/4 and 2/2 is demonstrated. Indeed here again we are to understand that 2/2 means 'exactly the same thing' as 4/4, but that because the consequent notation is now in minims, crotchets and quavers (rather than crotchets, quavers and semiquavers) it 'must be' the case that the tempo has to be SLOW!

Rosalyn gives another one of her memorable performances here, and it is noteworthy that she again shows herself to be the pioneer who spearheads the technique (noted by Mr Grew) whereby this Fugue 'begins quietly and ends loudly'. Indeed it has to, because after having 'solo-ed out' the first theme (bars 1 - 35) she first finds that there is now a second theme to 'solo out' as well (bars 35 - 49), and second she then discovers that there is eventually also a third one (bars 49 - 115). Since the fugue only contains 5 voices, it is clear that by the time three of these are taken up with the three Subjects - each of which by default needs hammering at us every time it exists - the volume will inevitably be very much louder than it was at the beginning (where there was only one theme that needed socking to us). But there is one very strange aspect of Rosalyn's performance: from bar 36, she slips into a proper moving Alla breve tempo (we have, after all, now arrived at the point where continuous quavers are brought into existence). One can only wonder, therefore, why she did not begin at this speed - perhaps that was all part of the surprise?

Angela's performance is obviously closely modelled upon that of Rosalyn (as one would expect). So it starts slowly, quietly and mysteriously. But (again) at bar 36 it begins to pick up pace (i.e. to what it should have been at the beginning). Unlike Rosalyn she does not bash us in the face every time the theme is heard, and we must infer therefore that her decision to make the dynamic progressively louder as the piece progresses was a purely aesthetic one on her part (and not, as in Rosalyn's case, an unavoidable and inescapable result of the accretion of more and more themes that all need to be bashed out simultaneously). It is puzzling why she allows the pace (having managed to acquire it) and tension to flag at the end, and dissolves again (as in other movements) into one of her sulks, ending as though she has just played a quiet movement from Schumann's Kinderszenen.

I must confess that I have a soft spot for flying Leon, and also for dear old Glenn. They both have what I believe is the right idea for this piece (even though they both play it a little too quickly for the style). But I share Mr Grew's distaste for the staccato playing that Glenn gives us - applying a détaché sparingly at the level of the crotchet (in Alla breve) is one thing, but then to inflict it so mercilessly also upon the flowing quavers is tasteless.

Baz
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