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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
oliver sudden
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« Reply #210 on: 12:50:10, 29-05-2008 »

The bass clarinet line is certainly rather special in a way only an electronic/mechanical realisation can be.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #211 on: 13:14:17, 29-05-2008 »

But we have to-day our own crackpot interpretation.



So. A chaconne. (Bach called it Ciaccona in his own manuscript but we are unaware of an independent Italian form.) We all know chaconnes do not we - it is a dance style with a vigorous momentum and a forceful, manly swing, easily confused with the Passacaglia partly because there seems to be no consistent difference (Frescobaldi's famous Partite cento sopra il Passachagli is surely as much a Chaconne as any of the classics from the French Ballet).

It is clear at first glance what kind of tempo is required to achieve the characteristic swing - something not too far from the 92-100 mark for the crotchet, perhaps slackening off just a touch for the demisemiquaver passages later although even in strict tempo these would hardly be any more challenging than the thorniest slopes of the Fourth Brandenburg.

And the crackpot interpretation is provided by... well.

As far as we can tell, by absolutely everyone.

This was perhaps one thing decades ago when the Hysterical Performance fashion had not caught on. We note that the Chaconne in Bartók's sonata for solo violin is headed 'Tempo di Ciaccona' and provided with a metronome mark of just 50! Imagine the shock of Lully and Rameau on seeing such a wrong-headed notion of their vigorous dance take hold! But it is quite another thing to-day. We all know the Chaconnes from the Cantatas BWV 78 and 150 do not we? No-one would to-day think of depriving them of their necessary drive. But the poor old violin Chaconne still languishes under the weight of tradition it seems.

So who is the crackpot? Is it we? We do often wonder since such is undeniably the case in so many other matters. If so, can someone give us convincing grounds why? It will not be easy but our ears are we think reasonably open.
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Baz
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« Reply #212 on: 13:28:45, 29-05-2008 »

We thank Mr. Baziron for his remarks, but regrettably we must agree to differ on the question of the Scotch snap.

I do not know whether Mr Grew knows (or has access to a recording) of Bach's organ setting of the chorale Vater unser im Himmelreich (BWV 682) from the Clavier Ubung Part 3? If he has, he will know that this is a rare work in which Bach makes a structural use of the so-called 'Scotch snap', creating some weird and wonderful harmonic effects. The fabric woven by these ongoing rhythms around a canonic cantus firmus creates a strange but beautiful affect I feel.

Yes Mr. Baziron not only do we know it but we also long ago did it. Here is the result - a marvellous piece and a freely admitted exception to our "anti-snap" rule.


I assume you must have done this from the Novello edition, because the 12th note of your pedal line sounds A (as printed in that source), whereas - as you can see - Bach clearly wrote a B!



Perhaps questions over syncronization of triplets/dotted notes/Scotch snaps (and the like) might arise on another occasion?

Baz
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Baz
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« Reply #213 on: 14:27:33, 29-05-2008 »

..It is clear at first glance what kind of tempo is required to achieve the characteristic swing - something not too far from the 92-100 mark for the crotchet, perhaps slackening off just a touch for the demisemiquaver passages later although even in strict tempo these would hardly be any more challenging than the thorniest slopes of the Fourth Brandenburg.

And the crackpot interpretation is provided by... well.

As far as we can tell, by absolutely everyone.

...and now for today's Crackpot Quotation: "Chaconne a son goűt"...

...but I doubt that it was ever as fast as crotchet=92/100. It was (I thought) more a 'stately' than a 'manly' dance (not that many such instrumental compositions were actually danced to anyway). It is we believe thought that the ciaccona was imported into Spain from Mexico during the late 16th century. We note also that numerous German composers skilled in the composition of such pieces normally adopt the Italian spelling (perhaps they were content blindly to assume that it must have originated in Italy since it was not German!).

Most of those I can think of seem to work reasonably well at a tempo of around crotchet=72, especially since they are usually written in a Variation form in which the music gradually picks up momentum and complexity as it progresses.

Baz
« Last Edit: 14:30:54, 29-05-2008 by Baz » Logged
strinasacchi
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« Reply #214 on: 15:06:12, 29-05-2008 »

But we have to-day our own crackpot interpretation.



So. A chaconne. (Bach called it Ciaccona in his own manuscript but we are unaware of an independent Italian form.) We all know chaconnes do not we - it is a dance style with a vigorous momentum and a forceful, manly swing, easily confused with the Passacaglia partly because there seems to be no consistent difference (Frescobaldi's famous Partite cento sopra il Passachagli is surely as much a Chaconne as any of the classics from the French Ballet).

It is clear at first glance what kind of tempo is required to achieve the characteristic swing - something not too far from the 92-100 mark for the crotchet, perhaps slackening off just a touch for the demisemiquaver passages later although even in strict tempo these would hardly be any more challenging than the thorniest slopes of the Fourth Brandenburg.

And the crackpot interpretation is provided by... well.

As far as we can tell, by absolutely everyone.

This was perhaps one thing decades ago when the Hysterical Performance fashion had not caught on. We note that the Chaconne in Bartók's sonata for solo violin is headed 'Tempo di Ciaccona' and provided with a metronome mark of just 50! Imagine the shock of Lully and Rameau on seeing such a wrong-headed notion of their vigorous dance take hold! But it is quite another thing to-day. We all know the Chaconnes from the Cantatas BWV 78 and 150 do not we? No-one would to-day think of depriving them of their necessary drive. But the poor old violin Chaconne still languishes under the weight of tradition it seems.

So who is the crackpot? Is it we? We do often wonder since such is undeniably the case in so many other matters. If so, can someone give us convincing grounds why? It will not be easy but our ears are we think reasonably open.

Ahem.

I would not disagree with Member Sudden that many pre-Hysterical performances of this work indeed adopt a lugubrious tempo not at all in keeping with the spirit of the piece.  However, I believe it would be a mistake to assume that this piece should too closely follow the strictures of the 17th century Italian, Spanish or even French chaconne.  That was indeed a brisk, vigorous dance, marked by flights of improvisation of an upper part over a simple bass line.  By the time the chaconne had settled into 18th century Germany, however, it had become more complicated.  The bass line, while still harmonically simple, carries thematic weight and contributes to if not contrapuntal at least multi-voiced intricacies not seen in examples from the earlier century in other areas.  These intricacies get completely obliterated if the tempo pushes relentlessly.

I would also take issue with Member Sudden's idea that one could slow down for the magic marker passages.  To do so would undermine the very momentum he craves.  The notes getting faster would do little to disguise the harmonic rhythm grinding to a shuddering halt - or at least a severe pull-up.

As for technical difficulties - having tackled Brandenburg 4's thorny slopes as well as coming back to the D-minor Partita again and again since the age of 14, I can assure Member Sudden that the Brandenburg's famous violin passage is p*ss-easy compared to the Ciaccona.  For one thing, it's much shorter - one burst of adrenaline and it's over.  But even if they posed the same technical challenges, I would question whether the intent of the two passages was the same, and whether the same tempo would be appropriate for both.  The thorny bit in the Brandenburg is (I think) the petulant outburst, out of nowhere, of a show-off violinist who want everyone to LOOK AT ME and not those two miserable recorders (this works especially well if you subscribe to the Apollo v. Pan *edit - or do I mean Marsyas, the fool who challenged Apollo to a musical duel thinking the gods were fair-minded * theory of the piece), and playing it as fast as possible suits the piece.  In the chaconne, the hemi-semi-demi-remi-lemi-whateveremi-quaver passage is the accumulation of a huge build of the first part of the piece.  It starts off in seemingly fantastical, scale-like, improvisatory ripples of scales, but it becomes so much more than that.  Its emotional weight develops as the different voices in the arpeggiated bit take on different harmonic roles.  It's much more complex than the dazzling, throwaway showing off of Brandenburg 4.

I agree with Baz that a pulse-like tempo (assuming you're not too nervous) of 72 is sufficient to give rhythmic impetus without losing either the pieces complexities or the chance to let the music breathe.
« Last Edit: 15:13:07, 29-05-2008 by strinasacchi » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #215 on: 15:54:12, 29-05-2008 »

There's someone (I can't remember who) who's written at length about the extent to which Bach composes 'against genre' (including a great many undanceable dances) - whilst acknowledging counter-examples within his output, I feel this is worth bearing in mind when considering a tempo for the D-minor Chaconne. However, from that very fact one might conclude that it is to be played at a generic tempo (so as to foreground the dialectical tension between genre and individuated work) or conversely that it should be played at a slower tempo that (arguably) relates better to the immanent properties of the work (and then more aspects of the work stand in an arcane relationship to the genre, which is identified through other aspects of style). I can see a strong argument for both, but can't really accept that the fact he wrote in such a genre implies the generic tempo so unequivocally.

There are critics of HIP who claim that some of the performers have a tendency to 'de-individualise' works by locating them so strongly within generic conventions (and this argument goes back to Adorno's 'They say Bach and mean Telemann') - this is worth bearing in mind in this context.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
oliver sudden
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« Reply #216 on: 16:46:53, 29-05-2008 »

...but I doubt that it was ever as fast as crotchet=92/100.

...

Most of those I can think of seem to work reasonably well at a tempo of around crotchet=72, especially since they are usually written in a Variation form in which the music gradually picks up momentum and complexity as it progresses.

The ones I was thinking of were those from the cantatas BWV 78 and 150 in fact (so not Telemann either... in fact I'm having trouble recalling one by Telemann just now!). Although the one in BWV 150 is in minims I think. I'd be inclined to do those at about the same tempo were it ever up to me. Ricercar Consort do take the BWV 150 one in the low 90s at the start and reach the high 90s as they get into the swing of it, for what it's worth.

I can see a strong argument for both, but can't really accept that the fact he wrote in such a genre implies the generic tempo so unequivocally.

Perhaps not. I'm still waiting for anyone to give it a bash at this supposedly 'generic' tempo though so the performance practice as it stands only seems to acknowledge the argument in the non-'generic' direction. If anyone hears of such a recording I do hope they'll feel free to let me know.

I don't think there's a risk of tempo choice on its own de-individualising the Chaconne, somehow... Wink

a shuddering halt - or at least a severe pull-up.

Absolutely - but the actual Sudden phrase was 'slackening off a touch' and I was certainly not thinking of anything that breaks the momentum. The little spot where the demisemis are grouped in threes up in the leger lines seems like one moment that could bear a quasi-cadenza interpretation to some extent, for example. Not that it would need to.

the Brandenburg's famous violin passage
Of the show-off bits in the first and third movements I'm not sure which is the famous one but I was thinking as much of the former - purely as a thought that Bach's speed-limit for scale figuration might not necessarily be defined by the more tasteful things the solo pieces get up to elsewhere, even though the runs in the chaconne do of course go on longer.

I have a funny feeling that the only way I'm going to hear it at my fantasy crackpot tempo is in my forthcoming home-made MIDI version...  Wink
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #217 on: 17:08:04, 29-05-2008 »

I have a funny feeling that the only way I'm going to hear it at my fantasy crackpot tempo is in my forthcoming home-made MIDI version...  Wink

I have a funny feeling that the tempo won't be the only crackpot element of such an interpretation...  Wink

I can maybe perhaps just about see trying it at 92, but only if you allow loads of liberty for bending and slowing in lots of places.  And perhaps this contravenes the idea of a chaconne more than playing it at a slightly slower, but steadier, pace?

And as far as "generic" tempi go, 92-100 would be terribly slow for most earlier chaconnes.  120-160 would be nearer the mark.  Is this a debate of principle or of degree?   Smiley

Thinking about Ian's observation about HIP critics saying pieces are "de-individualised": I hadn't thought of it that way, and it's an important thing to remember when churning your way through yet another minuet - but I do wonder to what extent this criticism is rooted in possibly anachronistic (Romantic) ideas of the Great Individualistic Artist with Important Things to Say.  Just a thought.
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Baz
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« Reply #218 on: 17:39:01, 29-05-2008 »

There is a very penetrative analysis of the Bach D minor Chaconne by Larry Solomon at...

http://solomonsmusic.net/bachacon.htm

One of his conclusions is that the tempo must - because of the harmonic pacing - be on the slow side. What he means by 'slow' is not that clear...

...but when Heifetz plays it HERE he takes in excess of 7 minutes to get through its mere 256 bars! (Since the clip is not a complete performance it is unceratin exactly how long it takes him.) This, surely, is just simply too slow overall. In point of fact, you will notice that his tempo undergoes very considerable variation (like the music), and that some of the more active sections are taken more quickly. (I feel that these are the tempi that would be suitable more or less throughout).

I can't see anything wrong (to my senses anyway) with something closer to a beat of 72.

Baz
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #219 on: 18:10:19, 29-05-2008 »

And as far as "generic" tempi go, 92-100 would be terribly slow for most earlier chaconnes.

Indeed. But about right for the other ones I know by Bach.  Wink
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #220 on: 18:14:38, 29-05-2008 »

...but when Heifetz plays it HERE he takes in excess of 7 minutes to get through its mere 256 bars! (Since the clip is not a complete performance it is unceratin exactly how long it takes him.)
iTunes clox him at 12:53, fo' yo' info'
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #221 on: 18:42:47, 29-05-2008 »

And as far as "generic" tempi go, 92-100 would be terribly slow for most earlier chaconnes.

Indeed. But about right for the other ones I know by Bach.  Wink


Hmm.  I assume you mean the chorales in BWV 78 and 150 that you mentioned in your original posting.  I have neither score nor recordings to hand, so I don't know if Herr Bach actually marked these chorales as chaconnes.  I have serious doubts (having listened to two admittedly dodgy clips) whether BWV 150 is a chaconne at all, lacking the rhythmic reiteration on beat 2 that usually characterises the form.  In any case, neither example provides the level of rhythmic elaboration and division that the solo violin piece demonstrates.  I'm not convinced that they provide useful models for how the violin piece ought to be performed.

Another thing to consider is the chaconne's context in the Partita as a whole.  All too often it is treated as a piece in and of itself.  But it is part of a suite, and follows hard upon a fleet-footed gigue (Giga, Bach writes himself).  Would it feel musically appropriate to follow one fast and furious movement with another?  Would not a touch more "tempo ordinario" feel a more proper way to end things?

Perhaps what Member Sudden objects to is not so much a question of tempo as one of character.  All too often people play the chaconne as if it is the most weighty, serious, ponderous piece in the world (and I believe it would be possible to bring such a po-faced attitude to the piece even at a fast clip).  Perhaps what he actually seeks is buoyancy rather than speed.

Either that or he's been listening to far more Reinhardt Goebel than is good for anyone.

 Smiley
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #222 on: 19:15:06, 29-05-2008 »

Ah, if only Goebel had actually committed those pieces to disc... (are there live recordings anywhere? Surely there must be. Maybe they'll surface one day.)

I believe the final movement of BWV 150 is marked as a 'Ciacona' despite lacking the characteristic rhythmic fingerprint. (...which Brahms to some extent put back when he took it as the starting point for the finale of the fourth symphony.) I'm not sure if the opening chorus of Jesu, der du meine Seele is so marked but if that's not a chaconne then I don't know what is... no they aren't as elaborate as 'the' chaconne but they're the only Bach chaconnes I know. Anyone know any others?

As for the chaconne being a proper ending to a Bachian suite - it's surely rather odd it being there at all (and after the gigue which would 'normally' conclude the suite at that) whatever speed it goes. I would have thought though that if anything a quicker tempo would integrate it more into the suite as a whole - at the traditional tempo it takes up about half the partita!

It's not just buoyancy I'm looking for, though obviously that's a must anyway. To me the harmonic pacing and the rhythmic character make it jump off the page at a quite particular speed which I would very much like to hear some day, and with a vitality I haven't heard in any performance but which to me characterise the chaconne form and help make it one of my favourite things in music. Alas it may well be that no one else has looked at those dots in quite the same way. Pity.

I'll stop droning on about it now though.   Kiss
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #223 on: 22:53:05, 29-05-2008 »

I'll stop droning on about it now though.   Kiss

...almost.

An mp3 has just come my way from a parallel universe. It doesn't sound great but neither would you if you'd originally lasted 13 minutes and were reduced to 8 1/2.

I think the fact that it still sometimes sounds like music is partly attributable to the wonderful qualities of the source recording! (A private recording by Marie Leonhardt, from the Diapason September 2005 cover disc.) Of course some of it sounds pretty wacky simply because bows can't move like that in the real world...

Click here for the Crackpot Chaconne (achtung! 9MB!)

Click here for the Chaconne from BWV 150 (speed unchanged)

Click here for the Chaconne from BWV 78 (speed unchanged)

OK. NOW I'll stop.  Kiss Kiss Kiss
« Last Edit: 23:05:36, 29-05-2008 by oliver sudden » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #224 on: 00:09:55, 30-05-2008 »

I'll stop droning on about it now though.   Kiss

...almost.

An mp3 has just come my way from a parallel universe. It doesn't sound great but neither would you if you'd originally lasted 13 minutes and were reduced to 8 1/2.

I think the fact that it still sometimes sounds like music is partly attributable to the wonderful qualities of the source recording! (A private recording by Marie Leonhardt, from the Diapason September 2005 cover disc.) Of course some of it sounds pretty wacky simply because bows can't move like that in the real world...

Click here for the Crackpot Chaconne (achtung! 9MB!)

Click here for the Chaconne from BWV 150 (speed unchanged)

Click here for the Chaconne from BWV 78 (speed unchanged)

OK. NOW I'll stop.  Kiss Kiss Kiss

Interesting Ollie - a few observations:

The Crackpot Chaconne shows what a remarkable medium digital sound can be - with analogue recordings if the speed is increased then so is the pitch raised accordingly. Not so with digital sound however. The actual tempo used, we can therefore infer confidently, was even slower than my suggested 72 (since what we heard was c. 90, but the playing time had been reduced from 13 to 8.5 minutes - which means that the original tempo must have been c. 60 for the crotchet). So while I should certainly have felt the playing too slow at the original speed, what it was converted to is just too too damned FAST. Quite apart from the fact that nobody could possibly play it at that speed with the cleanness required (and feigned in the clip), it is simply (in my book) inappropriately quick for the structure and content of the movement. BUT...

With the other two clips, the speed is exactly right! In both, the harmony moves steadily at a rate of one chord per bar, with slight additions at cadences (and I know that in the second of this pair there is additionally a chromatic changing note on the second beat as well - but this does affect the basic harmonic pulse). Additionally, in neither movement (unlike the Violin piece) does the rhythmic pace become increased to any great extent. The tempi here sound exactly right, and it would be difficult to imagine the movements being slower (even if one had no knowledge or awareness of a link with the term 'ciaccona').

But I cannot feel the same about the Violin extract - it just sounds WRONG to me at that fast tempo - the harmonic pacing, and rhythmic development just don't work that way to my ears.

But thanks very much for sharing the files - they were really interesting.

Baz
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