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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Baz
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« Reply #360 on: 10:37:35, 25-06-2008 »

To-day we come to Bach in E, and in particular the Prelude in E major from his first book (rapid-share or send-space); it is Bach in pastoral mood, here arranged by a crackpot for an oboe over a drone, with an unspeakable harpy thing playing suspensions in the middle. But we must admit must not we that that particular suspension in bar nineteen is very beautiful!

Here as comparison is the performance of a newcomer to this thread, Edwin by name, and he is really rather good! (Except of course that he cannot on his instrument properly render all those long-held notes.) Nevertheless Edwin rightly considered that "one of the greatest secrets of interpretation lies in understanding a composition's harmonic progressions."

According to Grove at least, his is the "first complete recording of the Wohltemperirte Clavier."


Yes - Edwin Fischer's early recording dates from the mid-1930s. I sometimes wonder whether the excessively fast tempi used were because of the time-constraints relating to early 78rpm recordings?

The crackpot version is, of course, much slower than Fischer's performance - but not really that much slower than most other modern performances (or even, I suspect, performances in Bach's time). I feel this movement is essentially a "song without words" - and indeed rather Mendelssohnian in flavour (especially the chromatically-approached melodic cadences at bars 7-8 and 21-22). For these to have their proper effect, the speed must be more relaxed than Fischer's (though not necessarily quite as slow as the crackpot one).

The suspension at bar 19 is, of course, a repetition of the one used at bar 5.

I do not think the issue of suspensions in any way constrains the medium used - a clavichord hardly sustains anything, and a harpsichord note only lasts a few seconds. This matter, in a strange way, links up with Mr Grew's other thread about skill and intelligence, for it is a fact that one does not in any way actually need to hear suspensions held right through at full strength in order to understand them and feel their presence. Until something else happens melodically/harmonically the mind still retains the effect and rationale of whatever has been struck.

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #361 on: 09:57:12, 26-06-2008 »

The suspension at bar 19 is, of course, a repetition of the one used at bar 5.

At a lower pitch, yes. We find as a general rule that suspensions sound better the lower they are - something to do with the beat frequencies probably.

The three-part Fugue in E major from Book I of Bach's collection for young musical persons is to-day's crackpot presentation (rapid-share / send-space). It is a rendition doomed from the start, in that its first note is insufficiently detached; nevertheless it contains a few seldom-before-heard effects of held notes, for example in bars 13 to 16 and again in bars 22 to 25. The jolly bouncing bass line in bars 26 and 27 is according to Tovey one of Bach's many happy afterthoughts or tinkerings. It was not his wont to let a work go, and the correctness of his truly creative method is borne out by the fact that these amendments of his are always improvements.

Tovey refers to the work as a Fughetta, and points out in its regard that "nothing could be worse than pedantry"!

Let us for comparison's sake hear here what Daniel makes of it. It is true that the first note is properly detached, but that is probably as much as can be said in his favour. Our impression is of a kind of blur or fog really. In particular the bouncing bass line at the end is quite lost; so we think he would be well advised to stick to his conducting. By to-morrow we hope to have on hand another new harpsichordist - Helmut by name. These works have certainly been attempted by many people, both crackpots and the steadier sort!
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Baz
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« Reply #362 on: 10:52:55, 26-06-2008 »

The suspension at bar 19 is, of course, a repetition of the one used at bar 5.

At a lower pitch, yes. We find as a general rule that suspensions sound better the lower they are - something to do with the beat frequencies probably.

The three-part Fugue in E major from Book I of Bach's collection for young musical persons is to-day's crackpot presentation (rapid-share / send-space). It is a rendition doomed from the start, in that its first note is insufficiently detached; nevertheless it contains a few seldom-before-heard effects of held notes, for example in bars 13 to 16 and again in bars 22 to 25. The jolly bouncing bass line in bars 26 and 27 is according to Tovey one of Bach's many happy afterthoughts or tinkerings. It was not his wont to let a work go, and the correctness of his truly creative method is borne out by the fact that these amendments of his are always improvements.

Tovey refers to the work as a Fughetta, and points out in its regard that "nothing could be worse than pedantry"!

Let us for comparison's sake hear here what Daniel makes of it. It is true that the first note is properly detached, but that is probably as much as can be said in his favour. Our impression is of a kind of blur or fog really. In particular the bouncing bass line at the end is quite lost; so we think he would be well advised to stick to his conducting. By to-morrow we hope to have on hand another new harpsichordist - Helmut by name. These works have certainly been attempted by many people, both crackpots and the steadier sort!


That "crackpot" version is not so crackpot really! Given that the "player" does not recognize anything to do with things like 'phrasing', 'articulation' or 'pacing', he maintains the structure immaculately (given that the tempo is a little hasty - even for such a happy little piece). Indeed the only blemish that jars is the inadvertent A# in the LH on the third note of bar 18 (which causes a temporary feeling of bitonality more akin to Bartok than to Bach), but at such a tempo it hardly matters a jot.

As for Daniel's somewhat ephemeral performance (I assume his surname is 'Barenboim'?) he brings a strong feeling of the 'twentieth century' to the proceedings (does not he?) by showing us that it is still possible to play even BACH at a very fast tempo without any danger whatsoever of it sounding in any way 'Baroque'. One notes also the lack of embarrassment with which he chooses to re-write Bach's LH in bar 24 (thereby making the 6th quaver a G# and the 8th quaver an E). But so what? - the twentieth century was after all a 'new age' of experimentation, discovery and 'editing' was not it?

Those of us who still feel (to some extent) that we are probably living in the wrong age still crave after Bach as he would possibly have liked to have been heard.

Baz


« Last Edit: 10:55:17, 26-06-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #363 on: 12:59:45, 26-06-2008 »

Mr. Iron's ear for wrong notes never ceases to astonish us! Two points arise from his latest remarks.

. . . the inadvertent A# in the LH on the third note of bar 18 (which causes a temporary feeling of bitonality more akin to Bartok than to Bach) . . .

The bitonal A sharp in bar 18 is indeed an obvious error; the edition used was Harold Brooke's and there are no A sharps  there! But the curious thing is that our other edition, Tovey's, the one our anonymous crackpot definitely did not use, prints an A sharp in a funny sort of way (Ex. 2):


Tovey should have picked it up should not he? But the edition was actually put out by the "Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music" in 1983 so it is probably they who are to blame.

One notes also the lack of embarrassment with which he [D.B.] chooses to re-write Bach's LH in bar 24 (thereby making the 6th quaver a G# and the 8th quaver an E). But so what? - the twentieth century was after all a 'new age' of experimentation, discovery and 'editing' was not it?

The bass in the second half of bar twenty-four seems to be a variant reading. Brooke has A E F sharp C sharp, whereas Tovey (see illustration above) has A G sharp F sharp E. He mentions in passing the Brooke reading (or we should say the reading of whomever Brooke got it from) only to say that it is "not well vouched for." So it looks as though Daniel the Argentinian was following Tovey which we suppose is after all not too imprudent a course to take is it.
« Last Edit: 13:14:49, 26-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #364 on: 14:03:53, 26-06-2008 »

Mr. Iron's ear for wrong notes never ceases to astonish us! Two points arise from his latest remarks.

. . . the inadvertent A# in the LH on the third note of bar 18 (which causes a temporary feeling of bitonality more akin to Bartok than to Bach) . . .

The bitonal A sharp in bar 18 is indeed an obvious error; the edition used was Harold Brooke's and there are no A sharps  there! But the curious thing is that our other edition, Tovey's, the one our anonymous crackpot definitely did not use, prints an A sharp in a funny sort of way (Ex. 2):


Tovey should have picked it up should not he? But the edition was actually put out by the "Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music" in 1983 so it is probably they who are to blame.

One notes also the lack of embarrassment with which he [D.B.] chooses to re-write Bach's LH in bar 24 (thereby making the 6th quaver a G# and the 8th quaver an E). But so what? - the twentieth century was after all a 'new age' of experimentation, discovery and 'editing' was not it?

The bass in the second half of bar twenty-four seems to be a variant reading. Brooke has A E F sharp C sharp, whereas Tovey (see illustration above) has A G sharp F sharp E. He mentions in passing the Brooke reading (or we should say the reading of whomever Brooke got it from) only to say that it is "not well vouched for." So it looks as though Daniel the Argentinian was following Tovey which we suppose is after all not too imprudent a course to take is it.


I am not sure to which A# reference is being made here? With regard to the bass in bar 24, the Tovey (hence Barenboim) reading is in error - there may be manuscripts that transmit this, but we can be certain that Bach changed it (as seen in the Urtext edition). How do we know? Simple: if you look at your example (from Tovey) you can see that between quavers 6 and 7 (LH) direct parallel 5ths are created with the middle voice! Bach positively went out of his way to eliminate such juvenile errors of counterpoint, hence the reworking.

Baz

EDIT: these are not - despite what I said - direct parallel 5ths (since the D is natural) - but the counterpoint was still poor enough for Bach to prefer the use of contrary motion.
« Last Edit: 14:10:20, 26-06-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #365 on: 14:28:42, 26-06-2008 »

I am not sure to which A# reference is being made here? . . .

Imagine yourself for a moment an innocent child again taking his first tottering steps in music and look  v e r y  c a r e f u l l y  at the key signature of the bass staff in the first piano line. You then see in fact no fewer than nine A sharps along the line there do not you? We wonder whether the "Associated Board" did it as a trick?
« Last Edit: 14:38:10, 26-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #366 on: 14:31:45, 26-06-2008 »

I am not sure to which A# reference is being made here? . . .

Imagine yourself for a moment an innocent child again taking his first tottering steps in music and look  v e r y  c a r e f u l l y  at the key signature of the bass clef in the first piano line. You then see in fact no fewer than nine A sharps along the line there do not you? We wonder whether the Associate Board did it as a trick?


Oh!! Mr Grew, you are even more cunning than Tovey! I should NEVER have noticed that.

Baz  Grin Grin Grin
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #367 on: 09:29:20, 27-06-2008 »

We wonder whether that misprint is in all Tovey editions - has the Member got a Tovey?

This morning's lunatic preparation (rapid-share or send-space) is Bach's E minor Prelude from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier. The quaver chords - their precise length is important - are very pleasant indeed; they remind us of another Bach work but we cannot remember which one. In Bach's first version they were all he had on top and the long lyrical twiddles were added only at a later date when after having thought a bit more about the piece he came back to it.

But the second part of the Prelude - marked Presto! and another addition - is except for the final bar somewhat otiose can it not be denied? (And thus it stands in contradiction to something we said only yesterday.)
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Baz
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« Reply #368 on: 10:28:50, 27-06-2008 »

We wonder whether that misprint is in all Tovey editions - has the Member got a Tovey?

I assume you have the original 1924 Tovey edition Mr Grew. I have the later revision of  1951 which is a little less slithy and, as you can see, this unfortunate misprint has been fixed. I expect the original error was a hangover from bar 9 where the LH goes into the treble clef, and the typesetter repeated the clef configuration in a somewhat assinine manner for the system beginning at bar 18.

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Baz
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« Reply #369 on: 10:59:42, 27-06-2008 »


...This morning's lunatic preparation (rapid-share or send-space) is Bach's E minor Prelude from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier. The quaver chords - their precise length is important - are very pleasant indeed; they remind us of another Bach work but we cannot remember which one. In Bach's first version they were all he had on top and the long lyrical twiddles were added only at a later date when after having thought a bit more about the piece he came back to it.

But the second part of the Prelude - marked Presto! and another addition - is except for the final bar somewhat otiose can it not be denied? (And thus it stands in contradiction to something we said only yesterday.)


I feel that Bach here originally intended a movement similar to the D Major Prelude (Book 1), but this time with the running semiquavers in the LH, and regular chords on the main beats in the RH. But I expect he soon decided that (unlike the D Major) a florid bass line did not present sufficient melodic interest, and therefore reworked it. By making the RH now a melodic line, this meant slowing down the whole pace (as Tovey states), and placing new ornamentations and figurations into the RH.

But he then probably felt that it all began to sound like some kind of 'grand opening' section to something else, and so decided to allow a feeling of climax and development by then adding the second section ('Presto') into which the first section was to flow seamlessly. It is, as Mr Grew suggests, not easy to pace this join effectively (though the 'Presto' does not have to sound 'otiose').

I think that GUSTAV gives an effective performance in which the opening section flows along with slight emphasis upon the main harmonies, and wherein the 'Presto' section simply comes into being with a feeling of the 'rhapsodic', and even the 'psychedelic'. He manages (I feel) to make the second half sound like a development of the first half (which is what it really is).

Baz
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #370 on: 20:12:45, 27-06-2008 »

I think that GUSTAV gives an effective performance in which the opening section flows along with slight emphasis upon the main harmonies, and wherein the 'Presto' section simply comes into being with a feeling of the 'rhapsodic', and even the 'psychedelic'. He manages (I feel) to make the second half sound like a development of the first half (which is what it really is).

There is something very pleasant about his tone that is true, and he does manage the transition to a sort of Presto very convincingly. But if we may venture a couple of animadversions the first would be that his filigrees in the first half are a little rushed due to a somewhat too speedy tempo, and the second and probably more significant one would relate to the extraordinary failure of the pulse on the second beat of the final bar - the F-sharp/A and the D-sharp are sounded just "anyhow."
« Last Edit: 20:15:53, 27-06-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #371 on: 22:04:42, 27-06-2008 »

I think that GUSTAV gives an effective performance in which the opening section flows along with slight emphasis upon the main harmonies, and wherein the 'Presto' section simply comes into being with a feeling of the 'rhapsodic', and even the 'psychedelic'. He manages (I feel) to make the second half sound like a development of the first half (which is what it really is).

There is something very pleasant about his tone that is true, and he does manage the transition to a sort of Presto very convincingly. But if we may venture a couple of animadversions the first would be that his filigrees in the first half are a little rushed due to a somewhat too speedy tempo, and the second and probably more significant one would relate to the extraordinary failure of the pulse on the second beat of the final bar - the F-sharp/A and the D-sharp are sounded just "anyhow."


I just listened again to Gustav. Although I don't mind the speedy nature of the ornaments in section 1, I can understand why some might feel that they are a little too hasty. But I cannot yet hear anything wrong with the final bar - it seems to me to be exactly in time, given that he applies a very slight rit as he moves into beat two.
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Turfan Fragment
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Posts: 1330


Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #372 on: 03:26:33, 28-06-2008 »

A brief digression which may fit better on another thread but here is most likely to get a quick answer. And it's not THAT far off-topic.

We just had the 2nd movement of Bach's Italian Concerto on another thread. I am planning to use this piece in my counterpoint class as an example of melodic elaboration and long-range melodic 'architecture'.

Are there ANY other works by Bach that are built in a similar manner? i.e. with an extremely simple accompaniment beneath an almost excessively ornamented melodic line?
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Baz
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« Reply #373 on: 04:51:56, 28-06-2008 »

A brief digression which may fit better on another thread but here is most likely to get a quick answer. And it's not THAT far off-topic.

We just had the 2nd movement of Bach's Italian Concerto on another thread. I am planning to use this piece in my counterpoint class as an example of melodic elaboration and long-range melodic 'architecture'.

Are there ANY other works by Bach that are built in a similar manner? i.e. with an extremely simple accompaniment beneath an almost excessively ornamented melodic line?

It might be worthwhile looking at the third section (i.e. the section in C minor) of the Pastorale in F (BWV 590) perhaps.

Karl Richter plays the whole piece here, and the third section/movt happens about 4' 40" into the recording.

Baz
« Last Edit: 09:56:37, 28-06-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #374 on: 10:40:38, 28-06-2008 »

The E minor Fugue in Book I (here - rapid-share / send-space - in an utterly addle-brained version) is the only two-part Fugue Bach published in the Well-Tempered Clavier. Tovey says that "finger-staccato" should be used, much as in some Mendelssohn Scherzo. (Regrettably our crackpot did not do that.) But we wondered how it would sound in a really staccato version, and suspecting that Glenn would know turned to his recording. Well! His rendition really flies by, and is much faster than anything by Mendelssohn we think. But would Bach have even recognized it? So for further comparison here (since Helmut has not yet turned up) is Wanda again. She is fast enough but not particularly staccato.
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