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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #585 on: 13:07:35, 04-08-2008 »

We are particularly interested to note the operator's manual techniques, especially as she bounces her hands up and down, and carefully but purposefully strokes the surface of the machine (especially with the left hand) in order to keep it in tip-top and smooth running condition.

It is a technique rather different from that of Bach himself is not it:

"This is the way in which Bach played the harpsichord. 'His five fingers bent so that their extremities fell perpendicularly on the keyboard, above which they formed a parallel line ever ready to obey. The finger did not rise perpendicularly on leaving the touch, but rather glided back towards the palm of the hand; in the transition from one touch to another, this very gliding imparted to the next finger the exact strength of pressure that had been put into force by the preceding finger; hence a great evenness and a touch that was neither thick nor harsh.' It is Philip Emmanuel that has given us this description.

"Bach had a small hand; the motion of his fingers was barely perceptible, as the first phalanges were the only ones that moved. His hand preserved the rounded shape, even in the execution of the most difficult passages; the fingers were barely raised above the keyboard, just a shade more than in the playing a shake. As soon as a finger had been used, he brought it back to its proper position. The remainder of his body took no part whatever in the work. It is only those whose hands are not sufficiently nimble that need to exert their whole frame when playing.

"Nowadays we do not play the harpsichord, and the piano which has replaced it with great advantage requires methods and means that were hitherto unknown. No change has occurred in the art of playing the organ for the past two centuries. . . ."

- Extracted from C. M. Widor, "John Sebastian Bach and the Organ"
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Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #586 on: 13:47:48, 04-08-2008 »

It is Philip Emmanuel that has given us this description.
Ah well, then it must certainly be true.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #587 on: 13:55:21, 04-08-2008 »

It is Philip Emmanuel that has given us this description.

Philip Emmanuel Emeagwali?
« Last Edit: 01:51:08, 05-08-2008 by harmonyharmony » Logged

'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
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Baz
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« Reply #588 on: 14:49:26, 04-08-2008 »


We begin to-day then with a sadly deluded and rough re-interpretation of the first chorale prelude, "Kyrie, Gott Vater in Ewigkeit" (God the Father in Eternity) (long version) BWV 669 (rapid-share / send-space).

The words and melody of jolly old Luther's hymn are available to members on the Inter-Net; as Ernest Newman writes, "It is indispensable to have a knowledge of the whole of the words of the hymns. It is not only that Bach 'harmonised the poetry' rather than the melodies of the chorales, but that often the title, taken from the first line of the hymn, conveys either no notion of the hymn's general contents or is quite misleading with regard to these." We encourage members therefore to have a look at these and tell us whether and how Bach has interpreted them.

As contrast here is a steady sober and sensible performance from Matteo.


I think it might be simpler to post the text here for Members, noting only that this (together with the two movements that follow it, which will no doubt come our way over the next two days) uses the Latin Kyrie melody Fons bonitatis. Here is the first strain (applied to this movement) showing both the Latin melody and its Lutheran adaptation as used in the highest voice in Bach's setting...


As is clear from the rubric shown on the original engraving, this Lutheran version of the melody appears throughout in the highest voice. While we like Matteo's registration (especially the clarity he gives to the plainsong melody) we feel that it moves a little too slowly. We also dislike the way he always cuts short the last notes of each plainsong phrase, as well as the manner in which he adds rubato throughout which we feel unnecessary and distracting, to the detriment of the wonderfully tight structure Bach evinces from the counterpoint that is all so cleverly derived from the phrases of the plainsong.

On the other hand, Mr Grew's crackpot version (which is not really so crackpot we feel) allows the piece to flow without interruption, and still maintains a clarity of the plainsong melody (indeed - and this may well be a theme to which we return again and again - a slightly faster tempo actually enhances the clarity and effect of the plainsong, especially when [as here] it is delivered in long notes)...





Baz
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increpatio
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« Reply #589 on: 16:02:26, 04-08-2008 »

"Where beauty and elegance collide"

- Wynn casino tagline (apparently).  Conjures up quite the image, does it not?
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #590 on: 02:12:41, 05-08-2008 »

I think it might be simpler to post the text here for Members, noting only that this (together with the two movements that follow it, which will no doubt come our way over the next two days) uses the Latin Kyrie melody Fons bonitatis. Here is the first strain (applied to this movement) showing both the Latin melody and its Lutheran adaptation as used in the highest voice in Bach's setting...


As is clear from the rubric shown on the original engraving, this Lutheran version of the melody appears throughout in the highest voice.

We are most grateful to the member for the words, the music, and the engraving (wherein we incidentally note a) Bach's little blunder with that B flat in the key signature, and b) the fact that the Novello editors changed the "cut C" to 4/2). Since many members will be incognizant of the foggiest where the German language is concerned, let us venture to suggest a literal rendition:

  Lord,
  God the Father in Eternity,
  Great is your pitiful and compassionate forbearance,
  Of every thing a Creator and Governor:
  Have mercy.

Following the words as the music plays does indeed make for a considerably enhanced thrill we find.

But is not that "a Creator and Governor" a big blunder by Luther; should it not rather be "the Creator and Governor"?
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« Reply #591 on: 03:48:45, 05-08-2008 »

Barmherzigkeit might translate as 'pitiful and compassionate forbearance', but isn't that about 3 words too many?

How about just plain 'mercy' or 'kind-heartedness' - though I can see that the latter is a bit contrived, it is nonetheless the most literal.

This use of ein (as in the indefinite article) does not imply one of many, but rather one for many. So don't let it raise your hackles to shackling Luther with a perceived error.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #592 on: 06:59:46, 05-08-2008 »

Barmherzigkeit might translate as 'pitiful and compassionate forbearance', but isn't that about 3 words too many?

How about just plain 'mercy' or 'kind-heartedness' - though I can see that the latter is a bit contrived, it is nonetheless the most literal.

I have a feeling "loving-kindness" might be the (or at least a) usual English translation. Not of the German but of the biblical original of which Barmherzigkeit is the usual German translation, if you get my drift.

As in yo' Psalm 23.

Quote
6 Gutes und Barmherzigkeit werden mir folgen mein Leben lang
6 Surely, goodness and loving-kindness shall follow me all the days of my life
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Baz
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« Reply #593 on: 08:55:37, 05-08-2008 »

...and the engraving (wherein we incidentally note a) Bach's little blunder with that B flat in the key signature...

It was undoubtedly not a mistake of Bach's, but of the engraver's! The original paper manuscript would first be soaked with a chemical to make the paper become transparent (without allowing the ink to run!), and then placed face downwards on to the copper plate (to whose surface a sealer would have been previously applied). The engraver (not the composer!) would then carefully score through the composer's notation (that would appear in reverse of course) and this would scratch through the seal on the copper plate providing a copied reverse-image. When this process had been completed, the plate would have been treated with acid, and only those parts of the plate where the seal had been broken would become etched.

Afterwards, Bach would have studied a print for proof-reading. Where obvious omissions (e.g. ties, accidentals etc.) were noticed, they could be added to the plate. BUT...where certain errors (e.g. misplaced notes or accidentals) were found, correcting these was cumbersome (though not impossible) and would need a further process of carefully infilling the errors, and then re-etching them. Some evidence of this process is to be found, but for others of little or no consequence it simply would not have been worth the delay and expense.

The error to which the Member refers is, I suggest, one such example.

Baz
« Last Edit: 09:02:49, 05-08-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #594 on: 10:02:07, 05-08-2008 »

We thank the respective members for all their corrections and explanations. To think that we had been on the verge of accusing Luther of all people of polytheism! Perhaps the "ein" should in that case be italicized. . . .

We have toyed with the prospect of following each long setting with its corresponding short setting, but after consideration have decided it would be better to adhere to the published sequence. To-day therefore we come to B.W.V. 670, "Christe, aller Welt Trost," Bach's longer setting of the second of the three forms of the Kyrie hymn. The version of the anonymous crackpot (rapid-share / send-space) is no great shakes because his shakes are not great - and it is much too late to change them now!

Here as comparison is sensible Helmut.

It is noteworthy that all three works, B.W.V. 669, 670, and 671 use three flats as key signature. Yet the first ends in G, the second (to-day's) in C, and the third in a very half-hearted and unconvincing G which really wants to resolve up to a C. Are any members able to explain why this should be so?
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Baz
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« Reply #595 on: 10:26:38, 05-08-2008 »

We thank the respective members for all their corrections and explanations. To think that we had been on the verge of accusing Luther of all people of polytheism! Perhaps the "ein" should in that case be italicized. . . .

We have toyed with the prospect of following each long setting with its corresponding short setting, but after consideration have decided it would be better to adhere to the published sequence. To-day therefore we come to B.W.V. 670, "Christe, aller Welt Trost," Bach's longer setting of the second of the three forms of the Kyrie hymn. The version of the anonymous crackpot (rapid-share / send-space) is no great shakes because his shakes are not great - and it is much too late to change them now!

Here as comparison is sensible Helmut.

It is noteworthy that all three works, B.W.V. 669, 670, and 671 use three flats as key signature. Yet the first ends in G, the second (to-day's) in C, and the third in a very half-hearted and unconvincing G which really wants to resolve up to a C. Are any members able to explain why this should be so?


We enjoyed both performances - especially Helmut's which reminded us again of the magnificence of the sound of that wonderful Silbermann organ in St.-Pierre-le-Jeune, Strasburg! Bar 54 presents a difference of opinion (both between Mr Grew and Helmut, and also between players generally) does not it? We tend on the whole to agree with Helmut that the ante-penultimate quaver in the top voice is best left as an A-natural, though a case (within the notational convention applicable) could be made for the Ab which Mr Grew gives us. The ambiguity will be discernible in the original engraving which appears below.

This movement again uses the Fons bonitatis Latin plainsong melody in its Lutheran form, as shown here...


...and as the rubric in the print makes clear the cantus firmus has now moved down to the Tenor voice. Again it must be noticed how skilfully Bach uses the melodic material of each phrase of the plainsong (with an emphasis on the first phrase) to construct his glittering counterpoint.

We shall look forward to hearing the final Kyrie movement tomorrow!







Baz
« Last Edit: 11:25:34, 05-08-2008 by Baz » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #596 on: 12:05:38, 05-08-2008 »

This movement again uses the Fons bonitatis Latin plainsong melody in its Lutheran form, as shown here...


...and as the rubric in the print makes clear the cantus firmus has now moved down to the Tenor voice. Again it must be noticed how skilfully Bach uses the melodic material of each phrase of the plainsong (with an emphasis on the first phrase) to construct his glittering counterpoint.

Again we thank the Member for the words, music, and engraving. For those to whom German is all Dutch let us for the moment assume the office of dragoman - again very literally:

    Christ, solace of all the world,
    Us sinners You alone have redeemed.
    O Jesu Son of God,
    Speak for us
    At the highest throne,
    To you we cry from our soul's longing:
    Have mercy!


It may interest members to know that - although we are not of course saying that they are in any way "right" - both the Novello edition and the Bach-Gesellschaft edition print an accidental flat against that antepenultimate quaver in bar fifty-four to which the Member so interestingly draws attention. But we trust his judgement here and have accordingly marked an A natural in our copy.
« Last Edit: 12:10:46, 05-08-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
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« Reply #597 on: 14:32:51, 05-08-2008 »


It is noteworthy that all three works, B.W.V. 669, 670, and 671 use three flats as key signature. Yet the first ends in G, the second (to-day's) in C, and the third in a very half-hearted and unconvincing G which really wants to resolve up to a C. Are any members able to explain why this should be so?


The answer is two-fold we feel. First, Bach respects utterly the integrity of the plainsong theme which in its Lutheran version is transmitted by him with complete fidelity. Second (and more significant) is the manner in which he chooses to dispose it texturally.

The chant employs Mode III (Phrygian) with a finalis on E and a 'dominant' on C. Each strain of the chant therefore cadences with a falling scale that comes to rest on the E.

Now Bach, in using this pattern within a tonal framework and transposing it all up a minor third, regards the "E" (of the chant) as the mediant (id est "G" within the key of Eb). The first movement projects the cantus firmus in the highest voice, and cadences on the G (which is the transposed note "E"). That explains why this movement appears to cadence on G.

The second movement however now (for contrast and further engagement) places the cantus firmus in the Tenor voice. This also cadences upon G, but Bach makes this Tenor G function as the dominant of the cadence key (C minor).

The third movement (which we hope to enjoy tomorrow Mr Grew!) moves the cantus firmus now into the Bass voice (using the organ pedals). Since again the Phrygian cadence of the chant moves down (here in its transposed form) through Ab to rest upon the G, Bach unembarrassingly progresses (in a very dramatic way tonally!) towards another strong cadence upon G.

The feeling of "half-close" to which Mr Grew refers is, to us, nothing more than an incipient respect for the modal qualities of the melody. It never manages to sound entirely "Phrygian" in ambience because Bach not surprisingly gives it a tonal treatment. But the deliberately-injected tonal "ambiguity" we feel is a further touch of Bachian genius in showing observance of, and respect for the original modality of the source melody.

This to us seems sufficient explanation for the effect, and one we feel that again shows the mark of a composer who fully understands the nature of the materials (however old and arcane they might have been) that he is using.

Baz
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #598 on: 19:44:22, 05-08-2008 »

We've meant to post some baroque examples of 'crackpottery', although not from the 48 Preludes and Fugues, I'm afraid. Here are two favourite examples where the conductor has chosen incredibly fast speeds - surely, too fast? - but exhilarating nevertheless.

First, the final movement of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No.3, with Musica Antiqua Köln conducted by Reinhard Goebel - the strings scrabbling round in high excitement: http://www.sendspace.com/file/d48h1z

Next, the opening to Vivaldi's Gloria RV589 in a performance by Concerto Italiano, conducted by Rinaldo Alessandrini. Quite how the trumpets keep up the incredible tempo, we just cannot fathom, but the effect is quite something!
http://www.sendspace.com/file/vcuf4h
« Last Edit: 20:00:51, 05-08-2008 by Il Grande Inquisitor » Logged

Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency
Baz
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« Reply #599 on: 21:02:42, 05-08-2008 »

We've meant to post some baroque examples of 'crackpottery', although not from the 48 Preludes and Fugues, I'm afraid. Here are two favourite examples where the conductor has chosen incredibly fast speeds - surely, too fast? - but exhilarating nevertheless.

First, the final movement of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No.3, with Musica Antiqua Köln conducted by Reinhard Goebel - the strings scrabbling round in high excitement: http://www.sendspace.com/file/d48h1z

"Jan Hanford said:

Appalling: yes. Not only does the first movement of the Sixth Concerto sound like a joke but the third movement of the Third Concerto sounds like a midi file played at 3 times the correct speed. Perhaps we are supposed to be impressed that the musicians managed to keep the melodies somewhat clear at such a speed. I'm not impressed. The whole recording sounds like they did everything they could to make it "different", therefore creating an unpleasant mess in the process. I adore Musica Antiqua Koln and Reinhard Goebel's recordings and own as many as I've been able to find (their recording of Bach's Orchestral Suites is wonderful). I'm confused by this ridiculous recording. I'm sure he has his reasons but the sad fact is that what could have potentially been one of the most beautiful performances yet recorded is, instead, a travesty." (http://www.jsbach.org/goebelbrandenburgconcertos.html)

WE AGREE!

Quote
Next, the opening to Vivaldi's Gloria RV589 in a performance by Concerto Italiano, conducted by Rinaldo Alessandrini. Quite how the trumpets keep up the incredible tempo, we just cannot fathom, but the effect is quite something!
http://www.sendspace.com/file/vcuf4h

The following interview between Carlo Vitali and Rinaldo Alessandrini occurred:

"CV: You're known for sometimes extreme tempos — e.g. the super-fast launch of your Vivaldi Gloria and the very slow opening of your Pergolesi and Domenico Scarlatti Stabat Maters. How do you settle on these tempos — and how do you make them work?

RA: I just follow the metric signature of the written scores. Vivaldi writes the opening of his Gloria in four, rather than in eight as was usual. On the other hand, I have come to the conclusion that in the 18th century, slow tempos were extremely slow. Generally speaking, I think there was a definite taste for extremes." (http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=20533)

One can only assume that RA has no historical understanding of what he terms "metric signatures"! Why should a work that is "in 4" and not "in 8" need to be played as though it was "in 2"? We detect - somewhere along the line - the lurking influence of Glenn.

Baz
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