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Author Topic: At Least Ninety-Six Crackpot Interpretations  (Read 11251 times)
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #600 on: 07:47:06, 06-08-2008 »

Since again the Phrygian cadence of the chant moves down (here in its transposed form) through Ab to rest upon the G, Bach unembarrassingly progresses (in a very dramatic way tonally!) towards another strong cadence upon G.

The feeling of "half-close" to which Mr Grew refers is, to us, nothing more than an incipient respect for the modal qualities of the melody. It never manages to sound entirely "Phrygian" in ambience because Bach not surprisingly gives it a tonal treatment. But the deliberately-injected tonal "ambiguity" we feel is a further touch of Bachian genius in showing observance of, and respect for the original modality of the source melody.

We are most grateful to the Member for his rapid response to our query about keys; as it is the sort of knowledge that is very difficult to find on the Inter-Net or even in books we have saved it and filed it away for future reference.

To-day we present "Kyrie, Gott heiliger Geist," B.W.V. 671, the third of Bach's grand chorale fantasias upon the three forms of the Kyrie hymn. - These will be followed over the course of the coming three days by the three corresponding and shorter chorale fugues.

The work is written in four parts, plus a fifth for the chorale melody on the pedals, and even a sixth which enters at the final cadence. Here is a weak wishy-washy and witless version from an anonymous crackpot (rapid-share / send-space).

In contrast let us listen to Helmut plying his tremendous instrument. "Strong! Strong!" we involuntarily cry in a kind of ecstasy as he enters the final stretto.

But it has to be said, also, that there is something deficient in the recording; there is that is to say as is the case all too often with organs simply too much reverberation. This may be heard most clearly and in its purest form in the first bar, where the second note, an E flat, is sounded against the echo of the first note, a D, giving the - not merely momentary - impression of a minor second suspension. Blurs of this kind continue throughout the piece and we really do not care for them. Surely such a reverberant recording cannot be an accurate representation of the "real thing on the spot," and we are therefore still always active in our "look-out" for Dame Gillian and her relatively anechoic trans-oceanic equipment.
« Last Edit: 07:49:04, 06-08-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
Baz
Guest
« Reply #601 on: 09:33:31, 06-08-2008 »

...To-day we present "Kyrie, Gott heiliger Geist," B.W.V. 671, the third of Bach's grand chorale fantasias upon the three forms of the Kyrie hymn. - These will be followed over the course of the coming three days by the three corresponding and shorter chorale fugues.

The work is written in four parts, plus a fifth for the chorale melody on the pedals, and even a sixth which enters at the final cadence. Here is a weak wishy-washy and witless version from an anonymous crackpot (rapid-share / send-space).

In contrast let us listen to Helmut plying his tremendous instrument. "Strong! Strong!" we involuntarily cry in a kind of ecstasy as he enters the final stretto.

But it has to be said, also, that there is something deficient in the recording; there is that is to say as is the case all too often with organs simply too much reverberation. This may be heard most clearly and in its purest form in the first bar, where the second note, an E flat, is sounded against the echo of the first note, a D, giving the - not merely momentary - impression of a minor second suspension. Blurs of this kind continue throughout the piece and we really do not care for them. Surely such a reverberant recording cannot be an accurate representation of the "real thing on the spot," and we are therefore still always active in our "look-out" for Dame Gillian and her relatively anechoic trans-oceanic equipment.


We suppose that the sound (as here in Helmut's recording) of a huge Silbermann organ (of Bach's time) resonating around a vast church is something (rather like Marmite) that one either loves or hates. We have to admit that we love it, and as with those who hate Marmite we are at something of a loss to understand how anybody could possibly hate it! We were incidentally not able to hear the confusion between the initial D and the following Eb because the first note was not captured in our download. But I have listened to the same performance from our LP and we are not too troubled by it. (We wonder indeed whether the Member's disturbance thereat might possibly betray his preference on the whole for Chamber Music as opposed to large-scale works intended for large-scale buildings?)

The Member's crackpot performance was - again we feel - anything but crackpot. There did not seem to our ears to be much amiss that it offered save a couple of isolated misreadings/errors (bar 38, LH E-natural on beat 3; bar 41, LH E-natural instead of B-natural, second crotchet) which in no serious way impaired the overall feeling of fluency and - more importantly - understanding of what the movement was about and how it should be delivered.

But Bach here demands in his rubric Organo pleno ("full organ") for very good reason: the cantus firmus is now placed in the pedals and requires all the main registers available (including a 16' reed) with the consequent manual support of all the Principal stops up to the Mixtures and (in our view) reeds. We should additionally have preferred (where available) a 16' manual principal, although Helmut shuns this. We feel that with such a huge sound the reverberant 'church acoustic' (which the Member bewails) becomes indispensable, and (indeed) mandatory for that final dramatic phrase wherein Bach contrives the most astonishing and effective chromatic harmonies above that final long-held pedal note.

Here then we show again the source materials for this magnificent movement, and hope that Members will take the time to listen attentively to Mr Grew's offerings while following the excerpts given which, we are sure, help to transform what may at first appear 'arcane' or 'abstract' into an experience resembling that which listeners of Bach's day - with their instant familiarity with the melody - might have sensed (if, as we hope some of them might, they had any intelligence at all)...




...and the original engraving...





Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #602 on: 11:07:12, 06-08-2008 »

Here then we show again the source materials for this magnificent movement . . .




Once more we thank the member for the music, the words, and the fascinating original engraving.

We do not know what was the matter with his download; we just now tried it here with Opera and it was complete.

Curious members without much German may wish to avail themselves of the following rough translation:

    Lord,
    God and numinous Spirit (i.e. Holy Ghost),
    Solace and strengthen us most of all in our faith,
    So that we at the end
    Gladly leave this wretchedness:
    Have Mercy!

Actually these people seem to have shared with the jolly old Bhooddha a view of life as "misery". But we have always considered them in taking that attitude to have themselves fallen into grave error.
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #603 on: 11:21:44, 06-08-2008 »


...Actually these people seem to have shared with the jolly old Bhooddha a view of life as "misery". But we have always considered them in taking that attitude to have themselves fallen into grave error.


But in our experience most "Christian" liturgies (and in particular the Church of England via the 1662 Book of Common Prayer) concern themselves with "grovelling" and inordinate submissiveness! ("We confess our manifold sins...", "We have erred and strayed...", "Miserable sinners..." and so on.) Life for "devout Christians" in their worship seems to have been rather like Eastenders - relentless misery! Let us be thankful, therefore, that people like Bach managed, amidst all this gloom, to show some light.

Baz
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time_is_now
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Gender: Male
Posts: 4653



« Reply #604 on: 15:55:12, 06-08-2008 »

Barmherzigkeit might translate as 'pitiful and compassionate forbearance', but isn't that about 3 words too many?

How about just plain 'mercy' or 'kind-heartedness' - though I can see that the latter is a bit contrived, it is nonetheless the most literal.

I have a feeling "loving-kindness" might be the (or at least a) usual English translation. Not of the German but of the biblical original of which Barmherzigkeit is the usual German translation, if you get my drift.

As in yo' Psalm 23.

Quote
6 Gutes und Barmherzigkeit werden mir folgen mein Leben lang
6 Surely, goodness and loving-kindness shall follow me all the days of my life
Mr Sudden is correct I think - although a more modern translation might equally use 'mercy' there, as indeed I believe does the RSV, although I'm not currently at home and don't have mine to hand.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Turfan Fragment
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Posts: 1330


Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #605 on: 17:55:08, 06-08-2008 »

'mercy' is definitely spelled and pronounced Gnade in German.
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #606 on: 09:15:32, 07-08-2008 »

Now we come to the group of three short chorale fugues which follow and correspond with the three long and weighty chorale fantasias we have heard over the past three days. To-day's contribution is thus the "Kyrie, Gott Vater in Ewigkeit (alio modo)."

This scheme of larger and smaller chorale preludes is said by Ernest Newman to correspond to Luther's greater and smaller catechisms. And as Schweitzer tells us, "In the former, Luther demonstrates the essence of the faith; in the latter he addresses himself to the children. The larger chorale preludes," he goes on to say, "are dominated by a sublime musical mysticism, aiming simply at illustrating the central idea of the dogma contained in the words; the smaller ones [such as to-day's] are of bewitching simplicity." Well we do not know about "bewitching" but "a sublime musical mysticism" sounds good does it not? Indeed it puts us in mind of the sublime musical mysticism of Alexander Scryabine.

Also it is not often remembered that Bach was a pioneer of musique concrète. For this work he cut up a telephone and used it for the alto part of a small ensemble, together with an oboe, an ordinary clarinet, and a bass clarinet (rapid-share / send-space).

As contrast here is Matteo playing a 1746 Johann Scheibe organ at Zschortau. As always, he takes his own time!
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #607 on: 10:07:08, 07-08-2008 »

Now we come to the group of three short chorale fugues which follow and correspond with the three long and weighty chorale fantasias we have heard over the past three days. To-day's contribution is thus the "Kyrie, Gott Vater in Ewigkeit (alio modo)."

This scheme of larger and smaller chorale preludes is said by Ernest Newman to correspond to Luther's greater and smaller catechisms. And as Schweitzer tells us, "In the former, Luther demonstrates the essence of the faith; in the latter he addresses himself to the children. The larger chorale preludes," he goes on to say, "are dominated by a sublime musical mysticism, aiming simply at illustrating the central idea of the dogma contained in the words; the smaller ones [such as to-day's] are of bewitching simplicity." Well we do not know about "bewitching" but "a sublime musical mysticism" sounds good does it not? Indeed it puts us in mind of the sublime musical mysticism of Alexander Scryabine.

Also it is not often remembered that Bach was a pioneer of musique concrète. For this work he cut up a telephone and used it for the alto part of a small ensemble, together with an oboe, an ordinary clarinet, and a bass clarinet (rapid-share / send-space).

As contrast here is Matteo playing a 1746 Johann Scheibe organ at Zschortau. As always, he takes his own time!


We find ourself becoming ever more entranced by Mr Grew's noble efforts, yet a further example of which is kindly offered to us this morning. We do not indeed mind the label "concrete", suggesting as it should a solidity of purpose and of execution. While we were unable to detect anything remotely tele-phonic, we did at least recognise the integrity of Bach's harmony and counterpoint and its close connectivity with the plainsong melody. But that is a good deal more than can be said for Sgr Messori's miserable snippet is not it!?

We do indeed find Matteo's playing intensely irritating. One might have been forgiven for believing that a simple one-page setting that proceeds entirely in simple quavers might be allowed to sound as though it does. But no! Messori seems quite unable - through some intellectual shortcoming - to render any sequence of quavers in a manner wherein they sound as though they occupy the same spatial quantity. We are very tired after only a single bar of being made to feel as though we are being lectured to with every passing note - as if some subtle 'point' is being socked to us. It seems to us something of a throw-back to the 1960s and 1970s when it was very much the vogue to demonstrate the existence of a kind of 'intellectual depth' (that stopped entirely with the player rather than being shared with the listener) as if to communicate (in some kind of postmodernistical way) that there was always something more to it than we mortals could ourselves perceive. (We must go further and say that we feel this kind of performance to be the equivalent of talking with a speech impediment! Each bar contains rhythmic 'stutters', but unlike those who speak this way, we do not feel inclined to show kindness and patience while the intrinsic content is delivered!) Well TOSH we say. We can only reiterate our ultimate challenge to such snobbery: what was good enough for Bach should certainly be good enough for us.

The source for this piece is identical with that for the equivalent longer movement posted three days ago...



...but Bach here does not use the melody as a Cantus firmus but rather as a Cantus coloratus wherein the melodic fragments undergo contrapuntal and melodic elaboration. Yet the whole effect is one of utter simplicity (and not, as Matteo would have us think, intellectual complexity).

Indeed the utter simplicity and unassuming logic is perfectly mirrored in the layout of the original engraving, and we wonder whether Matteo has ever seen it?...



Baz
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #608 on: 09:50:17, 08-08-2008 »

Here (rapid-share or send-space) is B.W.V. 673, Bach's "light" version of "Christe, aller Welt Trost" ("Christ, the consolation of the whole world") of which three days ago we heard a longer setting.

There is no record of Bach's ever having visited Mexico, and indeed he displayed no particular interest in either the Mayans or the Aztecs. Although he was indeed twice married he never called upon his executants to recite erotic poetry; nor did he even ever require them to take their shoes and socks off during a performance.

As comparison we had better turn again to Helmut, and in view of his unfavourable reception among the membership dump at least for a few days Matteo the only other contender! We had had no inkling of how controversial Matteo could be! But despite that he will have to make one or two short reappearances eventually.
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #609 on: 10:16:30, 08-08-2008 »

Here (rapid-share or send-space) is B.W.V. 673, Bach's "light" version of "Christe, aller Welt Trost" ("Christ, the consolation of the whole world") of which three days ago we heard a longer setting.

There is no record of Bach's ever having visited Mexico, and indeed he displayed no particular interest in either the Mayans or the Aztecs. Although he was indeed twice married he never called upon his executants to recite erotic poetry; nor did he even ever require them to take their shoes and socks off during a performance.

As comparison we had better turn again to Helmut, and in view of his unfavourable reception among the membership dump at least for a few days Matteo the only other contender! We had had no inkling of how controversial Matteo could be! But despite that he will have to make one or two short reappearances eventually.


The Member need not despair about Matteo - we seem to have been the only voice of dissent! Furthermore after today we shall not be posting again until 18th August due to our going away "on holiday"! It is a pity the Member did not make this posting several months ago because we never had the imagination to consider Mexico or anywhere interesting in S. America (despite our life-long fascination with the Aztecs and the Incas with their unbelievable building technology)! So the price we have paid for the Member's tardiness is a week away only in Devon! Because we expect rain throughout the time (!) we are taking lots of books, CDs and games. The Member's recent focus upon Bach's 3rd Keyboard Practice has aroused a new interest for us in this collection of morceaux, and no doubt it also will find a place among those items destined to provide us with audio entertainment. But in the meantime (while we are absent) the Member can post just as many snippets from Matteo as he chooses, with no fear whatsoever that he will in any way be censured for it!

If we manage to post again before 18th August it will only be because - perchance - we find ourselves in a Service Station or cafe that happens to provide free wireless connection to our laptop!

We enjoyed the Member's snatches today - both of them! Helmut's playing is - as always - a delight, and the Member's own effort again provides a "new insight" into this music that is refreshing without in any way compromising the composer's ideas.

Again, the source materials for this little Cantus coloratus setting are shown below. The first (which was posted 3 days ago) is the plainsong material...



...- here freely adapted melodically, contrapuntally and rhythmically in another simple but effective setting. The elegant simplicity (which nonetheless is subtle enough to put lesser composers to shame we feel) is again visually mirrored in the original engraving...



Baz
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autoharp
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Posts: 2778



« Reply #610 on: 10:52:27, 08-08-2008 »

The Member need not despair about Matteo - we seem to have been the only voice of dissent!

Matteo appears to us to be another Mr. Varyspeed!
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Turfan Fragment
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Posts: 1330


Formerly known as Chafing Dish


« Reply #611 on: 14:28:04, 08-08-2008 »

I do like a certain Mr Rübsam on Bach. What do other members think?
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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #612 on: 14:35:29, 08-08-2008 »

. . . our going away "on holiday"!

Mr. Baziron's commentaries illustrations and explanations relating to each piece have been so valuable and educational for the membership that we too have decided to take a little rest and continue the series next week. We hope a nice time will be had by all!

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Sydney Grew
Guest
« Reply #613 on: 07:33:57, 15-08-2008 »

Here is Wolfgang with that tremendously modulatory coda of B.W.V. 671. And here is André with the same.

For more information please refer to reply 601. Which man we wonder makes stand up more (if any) hair on the backs of Members' necks?
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Baz
Guest
« Reply #614 on: 22:09:08, 17-08-2008 »

Here is Wolfgang with that tremendously modulatory coda of B.W.V. 671. And here is André with the same.

For more information please refer to reply 601. Which man we wonder makes stand up more (if any) hair on the backs of Members' necks?


Well we have to say this: having returned from our holiday we purposefully groomed our hair with the greatest care before listening to either example. We paid particular attention to the attitude and demeanour of those short hairs along the back of our neck in order to maximise the impact upon them of Bach's final chromatic phrase (being particularly careful not to have appraised them in advance of what they were about to experience). But neither Wolfgang nor André seemed to have the slightest effect upon their senses. Indeed at that monumental 'singularity' when the Gb arrived, all our hairs had already fallen asleep! We were puzzled!

But after some examination we feel we have arrived at the explanation. Neither player seems content (as would have been natural in the normal course of events we feel) to allow the final chromatic phrase to speak its own language in its own time! Herr Rübsam, who plays the entire piece too quickly anyway, feels compelled through decency to make a great rall before launching into the final phrase (in order then to play it at the correct tempo that the rest of the movement should have attained but miserably failed to do so), and even then has to play it very much more slowly than the rest of the piece. In comparison Monsieur Isoir, despite having adopted a much more sensible (and slower!) Alla breve throughout, is also compelled to signal well in advance the impending "unexpectedness" of the final phrase and its insane chromatics - thereby completely destroying any illusion and surprise that its composer had attempted to create. But we should not be too surprised should we?...

Herr Rübsam studied initially with the legendary Helmut Walcha, and evidently learnt in his early years all about German Baroque music from one of its recent masters. But then, alas, he decided to reject all that and study subsequently in France with Marie-Claire Alain. We can sympathise with the dilemma this must have created - a) the French always play Bach too quickly anyway (a fact that must have troubled him from the outset), and b) that is the only way French organs can cope with Bach because the sound they make is too raucous, reedy and out-of-tune to permit any player to "hang around" for too long! Gone therefore must have been those glorious and in-tune Werckmeister-style sounds, or Silbermann-tuned crystal-clear harmonies needed to sustain even the long-held D-minor chord of the infamous Toccata BWV 565. It all had to be short and sharp in the interests of sanity (even though the French were probably quite proud of their notorious out-of-tune reeds).

Things do not get much better with Monsieur Isoir either! Not only did he actually study his Bach playing in France, but he actually WAS French by nationality! To his credit, however, we note that he respects the German Baroque sense of Alla breve and paces the movement appropriately. But then what happens?............! At the moment when he is to mark his greatest triumph he snatches defeat from the jaws of victory! That final plainsong strain in the pedals is delivered at about HALF the speed of the rest of the movement, and the chromatic harmonies that accompany it turn into something resembling a nightmare of César Franckian proportions! "During which century was this piece composed?" we cry!

There is nothing in the original engraving to suggest that the tempo should be anything other than Alla breve, and certainly nothing that in any way indicates a wish upon Bach's part for the last phrase to be in any way played more slowly than what precedes it. Why neither player seems pathologically capable of uttering this music in the way Bach intended it to be uttered remains a total mystery to us. But perhaps both are treating their respective audiences with a certain amount of condescension, and assuming that unless we are given sufficient advance warning of what is to come, and it is socked to us hard enough we might just believe that they are playing all the right notes but in the wrong order. Who knows?

Baz
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