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Author Topic: Peter Maxwell Davies - A case for classical music, old and new  (Read 1839 times)
time_is_now
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« Reply #15 on: 15:12:50, 16-04-2007 »

Ian

At the risk of sounding patronising, just wanted to say that that's exactly the sort of post we need from you. Provocative and yet informative, and offering some of your own experience and knowledge rather than getting all tied up in refuting someone else's (who's not even here).

Thanks.

And can I make a small personal plea for the above exchange not to be moderated, however apparently 'off-topic'.
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John W
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« Reply #16 on: 15:23:51, 16-04-2007 »

can I make a small personal plea for the above exchange not to be moderated, however apparently 'off-topic'.

Previous messages will not be removed but can I ask that posters stick to music in the music topics. The moderators are getting daily complaints, from people very fed up of too many threads talking about fascism and sexuality.

There is more to music than that. Please try to keep the music topics musical. I do not want to be faced with many members leaving because of one or two posters talking incessantly about politics and sex.


John W
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #17 on: 15:30:45, 16-04-2007 »


Previous messages will not be removed but can I ask that posters stick to music in the music topics. The moderators are getting daily complaints, from people very fed up of too many threads talking about fascism and sexuality.

Of course there is - I'm not aware of many threads to do with sexuality, though, other than the camp one. Gender is a different matter, but that is only come up in passing. Sexuality and gender (and ethnicity) are pretty big factors in people's lives, it would hardly be surprising that music might reflect this.

Quote
There is more to music than that. Please try to keep the music topics musical.

Of course there is more to music than that, but there is plenty of music that touches upon such things, or associated ideologies, as well. Is it not 'musical' to look at music's deeper meanings?

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I do not want to be faced with many members leaving because of one or two posters talking incessantly about politics and sex.

Can't they skip the threads in question (usually just a few very specific ones)? Or use a scroll button when looking through recent posts? Don't many people skip messages that don't interest them?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #18 on: 15:36:53, 16-04-2007 »

Previous messages will not be removed but can I ask that posters stick to music in the music topics. The moderators are getting daily complaints, from people very fed up of too many threads talking about fascism and sexuality.

Are such people annoyed by passages such as the following, from PMD's speech?

To return for a moment to extremely loud music with a gut-churning thudding bass beat - in 1984, Orwell envisaged the future of mankind as the perpetual stamping of a jackboot on the face of humanity. In this regard our consumer culture has achieved something more subtle and more penetrating than Lenin's Agitprop or Goebbel's Reichspropagandaministerium, or anything envisaged in a Huxleyan or Orwellian nightmare future. The exploited victims do not feel themselves the exploited subjects of designs upon their minds and pockets, and while having mind, heart and intellect stamped upon and numbed, and their pockets emptied, they enjoy and welcome the experience, which becomes a drug, an all-powerful soporific, insulating the victims from all reality, and particularly from political reality. To witness "music" being used as an instrument of mind-control or mind-erasure in this manner is as repulsive, in its way, as was witnessing Mozart and Schubert played by the concentration camp band as Hitler's victims were marched to their fate. Each period of history, each phase of civilization has the art and music it deserves. If this is so, this music reflects something every bit as disturbing in our collective psyche as communism or fascism at their genocidal worst. Perhaps it will slowly become clear to us all in what this consists - and by then, it will be too late to make constructive change. Much minimalist music exhibits the same alarming features, albeit less aggressively.

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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
John W
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« Reply #19 on: 15:39:08, 16-04-2007 »

Ian, posters should not have to 'skip' threads because of political or sexual content posted by yourself and others. You may discuss those aspects of musicology privately.

This is a second written warning for you to not post on the three topics listed in your first private warning.

John W
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ahinton
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« Reply #20 on: 15:45:28, 16-04-2007 »

Ian, posters should not have to 'skip' threads because of political or sexual content posted by yourself and others. You may discuss those aspects of musicology privately.

This is a second written warning for you to not post on the three topics listed in your first private warning.

John W
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It's your call, of course - but whilst I, too, do not wish to see swathes of political content in threads where it seems not to be appropriate, this thread is about Sir Peter Maxwell Davies's recent ISM speech and, since Sir Peter did actually say what Ian quotes him as having said, might it not be fair to suggest - without intendind to be contentious in so doing - that this "case" is arguably incapable of thorough discussion without any reference to those things that he said?

Best,

Alistair


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John W
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« Reply #21 on: 15:53:56, 16-04-2007 »

Alistair, Ian,

I am only now aware of that paragraph form PMD's speech.  I don't think protracted political discussion is necessary here.

Discuss where we think music is going.


John W
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pim_derks
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« Reply #22 on: 16:04:37, 16-04-2007 »

Perhaps it's an idea to begin a Music and Politics section somewhere on this message board? It could be very interesting to discuss the relation between music and politics (not to forget the relation between music and philosophy!). Members who don't want to read about it can simply ignore it when it's located on a certain spot. Roll Eyes
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #23 on: 16:15:57, 16-04-2007 »

Perhaps it's an idea to begin a Music and Politics section somewhere on this message board? It could be very interesting to discuss the relation between music and politics (not to forget the relation between music and philosophy!). Members who don't want to read about it can simply ignore it when it's located on a certain spot. Roll Eyes

Good idea - although I'd suggest Music and Society as its title, to allow for a wider range of discussion that can incorporate sociological and ideological perspectives.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
martle
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« Reply #24 on: 16:18:00, 16-04-2007 »

John
Would this thread be ok in the  News and Current Affairs section? PMD is, after all, Master of the Queen's Music(k), an international figure, has long campaigned for better music education in our schools and colleges; and it was indeed he, not Ian, who invoked political dimensions and parallels in his speech. Surely on this issue - notwithstanding the other 'offending' threads - we can hardly discuss matters without political reference?
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pim_derks
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« Reply #25 on: 16:20:56, 16-04-2007 »

Good idea - although I'd suggest Music and Society as its title, to allow for a wider range of discussion that can incorporate sociological and ideological perspectives.

Yes, Music and Society is a better title, perfect wagnerite (your name reminds me of a book that could be discussed in that new section).
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
John W
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« Reply #26 on: 16:24:34, 16-04-2007 »

That suggestion can certainly be considered but I would hope to avoid allowing this forum being a vehicle for extremist content. Are there not other forums that discuss music, fascism and muslim ideology and their relationship?

If there are please don't post their links here  Sad


John W
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #27 on: 16:34:21, 16-04-2007 »

Music in the Islamic World (some of which is sometimes covered on Radio 3) - that would be a fascinating thread; don't think we've had that (massive subject, of course). Anyone here know a fair bit about it (I only know a smattering)? Would that have to go in the 'World Music' board, or could we have it in 'Music Appreciation', 'Making Music' or something?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Ian Pace
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« Reply #28 on: 16:41:35, 16-04-2007 »

rather than getting all tied up in refuting someone else's (who's not even here).

Well, if that person is Max, I wonder if agreeing with his arguments (which I do in some respects) when he's not here is any different?

I'll skip the references to Sontag, the stuff about the state of musical education in the country, about the counter-criticisms re charges of 'elitism', about the Blair government, about the appropriation of Indian ragas in the UK and the apparent wrongness of using Western-tuned keyboards when playing this music, about the music industry and commercialism, the passage already quoted, more about education and the Thatcher cuts, will leave Max's comments on 'the masterpieces of Western music' (and 'cathedrals of sound' - wonder if James Weeks is reading this ? Wink ) alone, his further comments about how each musical genre 'was a way of creating a world, or even the world, and each performance, a way - perhaps a new way? - of hearing, of experiencing that world, or even the world', all of which would be obviously 'political'. That takes me to the end of part II, where he starts talking in musicological terms - hope that's not off-limits as well. Max refers to 'our instinctive perceptions about the nature of time', which is a subject that interests me, being just back from a conference on the whole issue of time, duration and rhythm (including the question of the spatialisation of musical time, the different, supposedly non-Western, attitudes to time that inform minimalist music, and so on). Max himself declares that we need terminology 'from space, in painting and architecture', so it would seem he has a spatial attitude to conceptualising time. But time is linear in a way that space is not; it's interesting therefore that he draws particular attention to the co-existence of foreground, middleground and background in music, taking Sibelius (very much a spatialiser of time, I would say) as one of his examples. However, I find it hard to see how he really says much about time in any broad sense in such works, other than to point out that the different layers melt into each other. In the stuff about Shostakovich, Ligeti and Beethoven, he talks about stratification by virtue of register, but then goes on say that he has outlined 'the unique concept of perspective in time'. I don't really see how he has because he is referring to single events for the most part, not how they relate to each other, are transformed or otherwise, and so on, all the things that happen in time. It seems more like 'perspective in sound' at this point. The 'dimensions liberated by harmony' (one might argue that music where counterpoint is more of a primary feature has its own comparable liberations) are surely about how harmony itself unfolds in time, not just about particular harmonies.

Anyhow, Max does then seem to talk about music temporally when looking at form, in which context he cites various musicological (eek!) writers on the subject. He rightly draws attention to the reification of form (not using that term, but outlining that process), whereby it gets set into stone, usually after the event, then composers (including him and Birtwistle) are berated for not conforming to these ossified models. This is very true, though maybe such things are inevitable - just as Berlioz was berated for not conforming to rules of voice-leading; actually he was an introducing a new chord-based grammar, perhaps reflecting his own instrument of the guitar. Max's mention of Schubert interests me very much, the look at the development section of the A major Opus posthumous Sonata. Anyhow, to cut a long story short, on the basis of some of Max's comments, I wonder if there might be value in even looking at the very categorisation of musical works, formally, with reference above all to harmony - couldn't a classification to do with approaches to time and development, and the sensibilities and subjectivities contained therein, be equally valid? Maybe, in the long term, that might affect how music is taught, and learned by composers? In a narrow sense, the formal models of Beethoven and Schubert are similar, in terms of the large-scale relationships between sections, some elements of the key structure (though this varies), but in terms of approaches to musical time they are extremely different (I'm not sure of the best terminology to describe things, though, that might be worth exploring in another thread if anyone else thinks the subject sounds interesting?). He ends by invoking Herder on 'cosmic harmony', the meaning of which is lost on me. Rather, if music might be going anywhere at the moment, it entails something of a retreat from universalist ideals in favour of particularity, contingency, localism, and so on. To me that has both positive and negative aspects, but I wouldn't know how to discuss them without being 'political'. Often such things are conceived in static forms, making time more central in this respect (including how conceptions of time are linked to such connotations) might also be a way forward.

(I'll also not discuss what Max says on the last page about education again, dumbing-down, the mention of capitalism and globalisation, advertising, all deriving from his views on form, time and rhythm, and then the exaltation of the Queen!)
« Last Edit: 16:43:25, 16-04-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
marbleflugel
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« Reply #29 on: 17:38:49, 16-04-2007 »

I'm a bit late(having been grappling with livegiglistings.com (which I found covers barbershop,chansons/ schlager and avant-garde alongside goth metal, house etc etc) but I'd like to support the intelligent way this speech is
being discussed. PMD is onto something but hasnt come across the diversity and indeed creativity afoot in some of it (absolutely by no means all). On a musical level something starts to wake up whenlive percussion is added and
the beat sublimated in some way or left out of a section  or two. The argument also takes us back to the issue
of technology and composition which we ran with on a previous thread. I think rhyming-from personal experience
with clients- against a beat or (better as more genre-flexing) groove allows young guys who've dropped out of
education to experience the idea of form and self-expression that sounds 'cool' and is coherent enough (unlike most of their interior dialogue pro tem, in whuich they could covertly feel terrible about themselves) for them to feel they have a stake in something called 'music'. Having a go at rhyming by way of making a twit of myself to
 temporising the atmosphere, (whence my handle DJ Septic Peg)I felt in a less exalted way the way Elgar felt about someone stepping in front of a bunch of citizens and '...Inspiring them with a song...is that wrong?' More importantly, that's how a  youngster can feel when he knows he's being listened to as more than a 'problem'. No commercialisation on the planet \can stand in the way of that in raw form imho. If I get the chance , i'll try and direct them to some real drumming of course rather than the machine (which has yet to develop an instrumental identity of its own as far as I can see)
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