Stevo
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« Reply #30 on: 21:11:04, 17-04-2007 » |
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It seems to me that some (including Sean O'Whoever) have managed to get their own snobbery in the way whilst castigating Max for his own apparent snobbery.
The fact is that, for all the 'liberated' expressing that so much pop and rock music allegedly does, for the most part it operates under a fairly unchanging set of strictures, with its so-called 'sub-genres' (hip-hop, 'indie', metal, etc etc) really just variations on a fairly narrow theme.
I took from Max's piece that whilst it is inappropriate to say that dullards listen to 'pop', nonetheless it is music FOR dullards: repetitive, timid, conservative, showy, predictable.
That's not to say there can be NO interesting composers and performers who might well class themselves as 'pop artists', but I can't imagine there are many. Elvis Costello, Scott Walker, Massive Attack and Aphex Twin do not a genre make.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #31 on: 15:10:51, 18-04-2007 » |
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nonetheless it is music FOR dullards: repetitive, timid, conservative, showy, predictable.
Alternatively it could be just the thing for all of us, at whatever point on the dullard scale we happen to weigh in at, on those occasions, or those parts of our lives, when being a dullard or a bit mindless or soppy or sentimental or repetitive or unrestrained or nostalgic or galumphing around clumsily as part of a mating ritual is just what is required. Just as there are times in everybody's lives when only a bag of chips will do. Pop just serves a different purpose, that's all. Not a different class of people. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #32 on: 16:32:00, 18-04-2007 » |
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Is 'Well said, George' becoming too much of a cliché?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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martle
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« Reply #33 on: 17:51:31, 18-04-2007 » |
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No more than 'hear, hear', t_i_n.
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Green. Always green.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #34 on: 17:57:44, 18-04-2007 » |
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Indeed, m. And this one I think wins my Sentence of the Week Award: Just as there are times in everybody's lives when only a bag of chips will do.  |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #35 on: 18:05:41, 18-04-2007 » |
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There's nothing wrong with having a bag of chips now and then, to continue with the metaphor, but if that's all you ever eat then it's unhealthy. I think PMD's point was that that was the only type of music people listen to and know because they've been brought up that way, and education should be addressing that. He didn't say that people should never listen to amplified music, or never eat a bag of chips.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #36 on: 18:12:00, 18-04-2007 » |
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So basically, what you're saying is that Max is the Jamie Oliver of music education? |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #37 on: 18:23:57, 18-04-2007 » |
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Well as Schoenberg didn't quite say, someone has to be...  |
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pim_derks
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« Reply #38 on: 19:29:40, 18-04-2007 » |
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Music in the Islamic World (some of which is sometimes covered on Radio 3) - that would be a fascinating thread; don't think we've had that (massive subject, of course). What exactly is the "Islamic World"? |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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George Garnett
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« Reply #39 on: 20:44:58, 18-04-2007 » |
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that was the only type of music people listen to and know because they've been brought up that way, and education should be addressing that. While we are in group hug mode (and aw shucks, guys) I'll very happily say 'Hear, hear' and 'Well said' to that too, Tony. It's the fact that people are missing out on something else that they might well find truly rewarding and life-enhancing that is the crying shame and recent education policy has to take a good deal of the blame for that, I agree. |
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marbleflugel
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« Reply #40 on: 01:29:31, 19-04-2007 » |
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George and co, great succinct comments- I think with songwriting the problem is with figure/ ground -a term
in Gestalt Therapy for the substance of an issue or thing and its context. And re: pop, its very now-ness can
create a syndrome of hype and noise. I always felt that way about early Max (Stone Litany et al) because of the
surly aggressive delivery of the performances of the time,before the language became familiar. I don't think either
this is just about becoming less vital or more mellowed, more grumpy, less angry or idealistic.
I would argue that the greater songwritersand perhaps by extension composers) will become lesser-known, but
more broadly appreciated, because they are becoming more concerned with garnering experience and honing their craft than
the polarised top 40 / Ades-y -lionised puppets are in a position to be. The scope and aspiration of the gig has changed, its in the process of reverting to griot -and-troubadordom through for example cyberspace.At this level, genres are but a starting point, and can have the virtue of underpinning an essential thoroughness. At a literal (and imho healthy) level this is happening in the meeting of genres, nudged at best by sensitive musicians like Costello and co, but also at points in the hinterland where discreet musical discoveries are made.
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« Last Edit: 01:39:20, 19-04-2007 by marbleflugel »
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'...A celebrity is someone who didn't get the attention they needed as an adult'
Arnold Brown
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Stevo
Posts: 56
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« Reply #41 on: 10:34:41, 23-04-2007 » |
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nonetheless it is music FOR dullards: repetitive, timid, conservative, showy, predictable.
Alternatively it could be just the thing for all of us, at whatever point on the dullard scale we happen to weigh in at, on those occasions, or those parts of our lives, when being a dullard or a bit mindless or soppy or sentimental or repetitive or unrestrained or nostalgic or galumphing around clumsily as part of a mating ritual is just what is required. Just as there are times in everybody's lives when only a bag of chips will do. Pop just serves a different purpose, that's all. Not a different class of people. I don't think that is so different from my own point. I like a lot of music which isn't very good; in fact it is lousy when pointless comparisons with Beethoven or Bach are made, but it's like the proverbial bag of chips already mentioned- a little bit of it does no harm. Doesn't the key consist in knowing that there is better music, which can be called upon whenever you desire? And isn't it a massive tragedy that so many don't realise this? That seems to be (one of) Max's points, I think. |
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John W
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« Reply #42 on: 10:59:37, 03-05-2007 » |
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Tagging on this thread to post opinion from Julian Lloyd Webberfrom today's Telegraph. He says we should stop bickering as it only hurts the cause of classical music? |
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chakgogka
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« Reply #43 on: 07:59:28, 08-05-2007 » |
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As a relative newcomer here (this is only my third post) I have to express a certain astonishment at the moderator's warnings given to Ian Pace about 'inappropriate' postings. Perhaps I live in a different mental universe, but I fail to see what was so objectionable about a brief on-topic mention of sexuality, that, to my mind, hardly contained anything that would frighten any but the most timid of horses... Your forum, your rules: fair enough. That, in the end, should be the last word on the matter. But please at least acknowledge that, rather than maintaining an atmosphere of 'neutrality and decency', you are imposing your own arbitrary social, moral and political values on the rest of us (which, of course, is a privilege that having your own forum automatically grants you). If it is really true that some delicate flowers have been genuinely shocked by the 'lewd' direction of this debate and the forum has thus been losing members, then I will reluctantly have to agree with the moderator's strictures (not in principle, but in practice, since life is always more pleasant when people are able to 'just get along' - something which usually requires a certain degree of mutual compromise). I'm not trying to get a discussion going on this - after all, a forum that is 'owned' is not supposed to be a democracy - but I just had to say what is on my mind... one of my more obvious character blemishes, I'm afraid! |
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ahinton
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« Reply #44 on: 08:05:03, 08-05-2007 » |
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As a relative newcomer here (this is only my third post) I have to express a certain astonishment at the moderator's warnings given to Ian Pace about 'inappropriate' postings. Perhaps I live in a different mental universe, but I fail to see what was so objectionable about a brief on-topic mention of sexuality, that, to my mind, hardly contained anything that would frighten any but the most timid of horses... Your forum, your rules: fair enough. That, in the end, should be the last word on the matter. But please at least acknowledge that, rather than maintaining an atmosphere of 'neutrality and decency', you are imposing your own arbitrary social, moral and political values on the rest of us (which, of course, is a privilege that having your own forum automatically grants you). If it is really true that some delicate flowers have been genuinely shocked by the 'lewd' direction of this debate and the forum has thus been losing members, then I will reluctantly have to agree with the moderator's strictures (not in principle, but in practice, since life is always more pleasant when people are able to 'just get along' - something which usually requires a certain degree of mutual compromise). I'm not trying to get a discussion going on this - after all, a forum that is 'owned' is not supposed to be a democracy - but I just had to say what is on my mind... one of my more obvious character blemishes, I'm afraid! Erm - and the connection with Peter Maxwell Davies - A case for classical music, old and new is...  ... |
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