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Author Topic: religion is evil  (Read 9492 times)
Milly Jones
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« Reply #180 on: 01:07:07, 10-08-2007 »

Don't mention combine harvesters to me!  Last time I went riding, I was going up a country lane - just the two of us, Dobbin and me - and a great combine harvester came round a bend.  Horsey started dancing sideways in panic and I, not being a wonderful rider was getting more than a bit nervous.  I managed to turn him round and there was a row of cottages in view, one of which had the garden gate open.  I made him go in there so he had his back to the thing when it went past.  If anyone had looked out of the windows and seen us I don't quite know what I'd have said!

Anyway, us true Aquarians always manage to find our way out of tight spots and peculiar situations.  Wink
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #181 on: 09:27:54, 10-08-2007 »


Astrology is presumably failed science rather than failed religion, isn't it?   

I agree.
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #182 on: 09:34:02, 10-08-2007 »

I am so surprized they are going back to Latin mass. May be conservative time is upon us. People are saying that they like mystery and it is better if the mass is in Latin. I could not believe it.

In Russia they say mass in old Russian that is difficult to understand. They have Russian services in Dublin and once in a while here. It is amazing how the language has changed that one has to learn words to understand it, but the church is not even thinking to change the service to a modern language.

 

For me, the beauty of the words is very important, and I find the Latin mass very beautiful. I only know it through singing numerous settings - the Requiem Mass as well. I think it's worth making an effort to learn it. If it's in Latin it's also universal.

I feel the same about English. Like most people of my generation, I was brought up on the Authorised Version of the Bible and the Book of Common Prayer, both of which are in archaic but incredibly poetic English. When I hear the modern versions I cringe - they are so bad! - and usually have to translate them back into the version I like before I'm sure which bit they are! If everything is simplified, it impoverishes the language and vocabulary. But I freely admit that I'm more interested in the literary value than I am in the religious aspect.

I once went to a church service in St Petersburg - absolutely wonderful theatre, marvellous singing from an invisible choir. I didn't know what was going on, but I loved every minute.
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eruanto
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« Reply #183 on: 12:58:00, 10-08-2007 »

I suppose it isn't completely inconceivable that the time of year you are born in might have some very, very marginal effect on how you eventually turn out.

Hmm. For some it's much more pronounced than others. Certainly I find lots of the stuff written about Pisces to be "right up my street", some of it even "accurate". Of course the exception is the daily horoscopes in the papers which are nothing more than money-makers.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #184 on: 13:44:15, 10-08-2007 »

I suppose it isn't completely inconceivable that the time of year you are born in might have some very, very marginal effect on how you eventually turn out.

Hmm. For some it's much more pronounced than others. Certainly I find lots of the stuff written about Pisces to be "right up my street", some of it even "accurate".

As a deprived, depths of winter January baby, I was thinking more of trying to rationalise my occasional strong hankering for a nice plate of lush grass and fat caterpillars. But perhaps that's just me Cheesy 
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Milly Jones
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« Reply #185 on: 13:47:39, 10-08-2007 »

The personality description that's usually applied to Aquarius suits me down to the ground, strangely. 

I love winter and cold weather - I always put that down to being born in the middle of February.  Smiley
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time_is_now
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« Reply #186 on: 13:59:15, 10-08-2007 »

Yes, I'm a fairly typical
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richard barrett
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« Reply #187 on: 14:45:13, 10-08-2007 »


Astrology is presumably failed science rather than failed religion, isn't it?   

I agree.
I don't agree. Science is defined by things like repeatable experiments and falsifiability, isn't it?. That's what separates it from astrology and alchemy, which exist at various transitional stages between belief-based and evidence-based thinking. Which doesn't make them any less fascinating and in some ways enlightening (like religion).
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #188 on: 16:08:21, 10-08-2007 »

I haven't checked through 13 pages to find out if it's already been mentioned, but is this Dawkins programme The Enemies of Reason (Channel 4, Monday) a new one? I'm sure Milly will be glued to it, anyway Smiley. I'd like to watch it, but it clashes with University Challenge, which I have to watch. I may tape one of them. I would only be watching the Dawkins to see how he handles it.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #189 on: 17:01:13, 10-08-2007 »


Astrology is presumably failed science rather than failed religion, isn't it?   

I agree.
I don't agree. Science is defined by things like repeatable experiments and falsifiability, isn't it?.

I agree with that definition, Richard, but that's what I meant really by 'failed science'. It purports to be science (providing a methodical explanation for observable phenomena) but fails the entrance exam on precisely those grounds. It also fails in that it doesn't even begin to make an attempt at offering a mechanism to account for its purported 'influence at a distance' predictions.

But I don't think it even gets to the starting blocks on purporting to be a religion, so failure hardly comes into it there.

But, having inadvertently been a troll on the 'tuplets' thread (for which apologies) I don't want to do it again here. Quite happy to agree that astrology is a failed something without taking a stand on what that something might be Smiley.   

Capricorn
« Last Edit: 20:29:43, 10-08-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
SusanDoris
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« Reply #190 on: 19:24:07, 10-08-2007 »

Quote
Anyway, us true Aquarians always manage to find our way out of tight spots and peculiar situations
As a typical Aquarian too..... ooops! No, no, mustn't say that, I know it's genes, inherited characteristics, etc. However, it's a bit of fun to wonder whether  there might be some sort of scientific explanation involving waves travelling through space. I think I am right in saying that there are waves of different lengths, varying from the microscopic to the gigantic,continuously travelling through space, us and the earth, so perhaps, just perhaps, certain combinations of waves at certain times of the year might, just might affect the growing baby.

(Tony Watson: Thank you for your 'can't believe I'm writing this' post!)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #191 on: 20:34:22, 10-08-2007 »


Astrology is presumably failed science rather than failed religion, isn't it?   

I agree.
I don't agree. Science is defined by things like repeatable experiments and falsifiability, isn't it?.

I agree with that definition, Richard, but that's what I meant really by 'failed science'. It purports to be science (providing an explanation for observable phenomena) but fails the entrance exam on precisely those grounds. It also fails in that it doesn't even begin to make an attempt at offering a mechanism to account for its purported 'influence at a distance' predictions.

But I don't think it even gets to the starting blocks on purporting to be a religion, so failure hardly comes into it there.
Thanks for that, G, and of course I would have to agree with everything you say here. I think it was a point that benefitted from clarification though, in case anyone gets the idea that astrology is some kind of science, albeit a "failed" one - in other words it doesn't "fail" as a science because it's wrong, it fails as a science because it isn't scientific.

I sometimes wonder though whether there might not eventually be some way of understanding reality which is "post-scientific" in an analogous way to that in which science is "post-superstition". What do you think of that, George? (or anyone)
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #192 on: 20:47:38, 10-08-2007 »

I suppose it isn't completely inconceivable that the time of year you are born in might have some very, very marginal effect on how you eventually turn out.

Hmm. For some it's much more pronounced than others. Certainly I find lots of the stuff written about Pisces to be "right up my street", some of it even "accurate". Of course the exception is the daily horoscopes in the papers which are nothing more than money-makers.

Hmm ... such statements need to be seen in the light of the Forer Effect, which is about the tendency of people to give credence to vague statements that appear to be aimed personally at them - see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

Essentially, Forer, an American psychologist, gave personality tests to his students and then gave them all the same response allegedly based on the test - and asked the students to rate it for accuracy, many of them believing that it was an accurate description of their own personality.  It's interesting to look at the wording of Forer's response (reproduced in the Wikipedia article), containing a series of contrasting statements inviting the reader to believe one or the other - it's quite a cleverly maniputlative piece of writing.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
richard barrett
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« Reply #193 on: 20:54:47, 10-08-2007 »

Thanks, PW, that will do very nicely.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #194 on: 21:17:32, 10-08-2007 »

I sometimes wonder though whether there might not eventually be some way of understanding reality which is "post-scientific" in an analogous way to that in which science is "post-superstition". What do you think of that, George? (or anyone)
Well, a search for such a thing is at the heart of post-Enlightenment critiques (such as, er, that of Adorno and Horkheimer) but also informs some post-modernist thought. In particular, such varieties of thought try to get away from determinist models of human beings and human behaviour, I believe, wishing to allow for aspects of both such things exceeding any predictive scientific models that might be placed upon them. One could so these entail a new emphasis upon an Aristotelian model of humans rather than a Platonic one, but I feel a bit out of my depth attempting to draw too many parallels in that respect. But many post-Kantian philosophical trends go beyond the epistemological possibilities of empirical science, and in that sense could be considered 'post-scientific'. Various political philosophies (including Marxism) could be said to fall into such a category. And surely some of the wilder varieties of science (from quantum theory onwards) exceed the boundaries of what can be ascertained simply be repeated experiments and falsifiability?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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