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Author Topic: Brown's new vision for music education  (Read 2110 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #75 on: 15:54:58, 25-09-2007 »

Since most of the leading Nazis were intellectual underachievers
Hitler was, as were Bormann and Eichmann but not necessarily most of the others. Goebbels, Rosenberg and Mengele all had PhDs, Hess, Himmler, Speer were university-educated. Heydrich and Göring both made their name through the military, ironically, since both were from artistic and intellectual backgrounds (Heydrich had a solid musical training from young). There was a complex mixture of a certain variety of intellectualism and militarism within Nazi ideology; none of these components can be separated out from it. There were also, of course, a very large number of prominent intellectuals (and artists), for example Martin Heidegger, who lent their support to the regime.

Quote
It may also be useful to append apposite traits which define a fascist state (as per Umberto Eco's definitions of Ur-Fascism in his piece "Eternal Fascism" (New York Review Of Books 1995).
Eco is an interesting novelist, semiotician and sort-of philosopher, but he's not a serious scholar of fascism. Most of the work I've read by those who are (for example that of Roger Eatwell, Stanley G. Payne, Roger Griffin, Robert O. Paxton and Kevin Passmore, not to mention many more specialist scholars focusing on Germany and Italy; I'm not personally familiar with the literature by experts on fascist ideology (as opposed to experts simply on Nazi Germany) in German, but I believe a similar situation appertains there) stress the intellectual basis upon which fascist ideology was founded - this was especially true in Fascist Italy, where the Fascist movement included major artistic and intellectual figures right from the beginning. Of course it was a massively devalued intellectualism since it was appropriated towards particular loathsome ends, but on the other hand 'non-appropriated' intellectualism is not easy to find anywhere. One can't write off the intellectual component to fascism, much though some types of intellectuals would like to. In some ways fascist intellectuals were the most dangerous people of all.

One of the perspectives I've come across recurrently in recent writing on this subject is that which argues the futility of working from the basis that fascism, in any of its varieties, constituted a particularly coherent and consistent ideology and programme, when actually it was and is riven with many internal contradictions. Eco's view of the singularity of Nazi intellectualism and Nazi art really doesn't hold up, nor does that of those who wish to, for example, separate out all forms of modernism (which itself took on highly varying manifestations) from fascism.
« Last Edit: 16:35:50, 25-09-2007 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
ahinton
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« Reply #76 on: 17:37:49, 25-09-2007 »

Al of the above is indeed most interesting and thought provoking, but it seems to have strayed a very long way from anything to do with Gordon Brown, vision and music education, has it not?!...

Best,

Alistair
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time_is_now
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« Reply #77 on: 17:47:32, 25-09-2007 »

My own view is that sports have no place in schools.  None at all.  They are on the curriculum purely for the pathetic and putrid glory-seeking of Principals, Headmasters, and others, who need to see other educational establishments rubbed into the dirt at rugby, football, hockey etc for their own self-aggrandisement.  Educational value = 0.
That's one coherent viewpoint, I suppose, but the thing is I don't accept the premise that schools are only there to teach things that are of 'educational value' (at least not in the sense you seem to mean it). I believe school is the best opportunity to encourage sport and exercise, just as it's the best opportunity to teach sex education, healthy eating etc. (Both of the latter overlap to some extent with biology, but the remit for teaching them in schools extends beyond the level of scientific educational value - rightly so, in my view.)
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« Reply #78 on: 18:03:22, 25-09-2007 »

Al of the above is indeed most interesting and thought provoking, but it seems to have strayed a very long way from anything to do with Gordon Brown, vision and music education, has it not?!...

Maybe so.  The National Curriculum is something which ought to be discussed outside the political arena, by persons properly qualified to do so.  As soon as politicians start wading in and overturning expert opinion in favour of soundbite sensationalism, alarm bells ring for me, and you have to ask "why"?  Does Mr Broon have an Education Secretary, and if so, why isn't that Minister announcing policy?  Why is Mr Brown - who is a great barrel of lard himself - suddenly so keen on P.T.?
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« Reply #79 on: 18:05:22, 25-09-2007 »

I did two hours of sport a week at school and I was never obese. If two hours per week is no longer enough to combat obesity then, let's be honest, it's not the amount of sport that's the problem. And every single person in the UK -- with the exception of Gordon Brown, apparently -- knows that it's not the problem.

Ah dude one anecdote does not a statistical basis for government policy make.  Recommended is one hour of physical exercise a day for HEALTH, not just keeping excess fat off.  Also, in many ways, I think that it is good to emphasize "sport" (interpreted as "games" rather than "competition) over "exercise" in principle, at least for younger kids.  Also it could be said even without all this evidence that it's good to prepare people for keeping fit in adulthood I think.

I can think of many ways of increasing daily exercise without eating into the scant hours still remaining for a child's education.

Let's introduce a Driving Your Child To School tax, for example.

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Jonathan
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« Reply #80 on: 18:14:25, 25-09-2007 »




I can think of many ways of increasing daily exercise without eating into the scant hours still remaining for a child's education.

Let's introduce a Driving Your Child To School tax, for example.

Now thats a great idea...
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Best regards,
Jonathan
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ahinton
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« Reply #81 on: 19:11:48, 25-09-2007 »

Let's introduce a Driving Your Child To School tax, for example.
Irrespective of how far it may be between the child's home and his/her school and/or whether there are any viable and safe alternative means of transport available?

Our Gordian guardian invented quite enough new taxes while he was Chancer - for heaven's sake don't encourage his little Darling to continue in the same vein!...

Best,

Alistair
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brassbandmaestro
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« Reply #82 on: 19:27:50, 25-09-2007 »

Ive, in the pass, have written to our MP, about the congestion  in the school run/rush hour time/We all know how much quieter the roads are during holidays etc, so i asked him about introducing a scheme that the americans have with their 'Yellow Buses'. Not bad yes?
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increpatio
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« Reply #83 on: 12:46:59, 26-09-2007 »

Let's introduce a Driving Your Child To School tax, for example.
Irrespective of how far it may be between the child's home and his/her school and/or whether there are any viable and safe alternative means of transport available?

What's wrong with school buses?
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #84 on: 13:06:26, 26-09-2007 »

People round here drive their children to school even when it's only about half a mile. I know of only one parent who walks with her kids, as I always did. When mine went to their next school, two miles away, they walked. They could have got two buses, but walking was simpler. We were all thin!
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ahinton
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« Reply #85 on: 15:10:27, 26-09-2007 »

Let's introduce a Driving Your Child To School tax, for example.
Irrespective of how far it may be between the child's home and his/her school and/or whether there are any viable and safe alternative means of transport available?

What's wrong with school buses?
Nothing - when there are any. They are certainly not available to everyone everywhere who attends school.

Best,

Alistair
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increpatio
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« Reply #86 on: 15:48:41, 26-09-2007 »

Let's introduce a Driving Your Child To School tax, for example.
Irrespective of how far it may be between the child's home and his/her school and/or whether there are any viable and safe alternative means of transport available?

What's wrong with school buses?
Nothing - when there are any. They are certainly not available to everyone everywhere who attends school.

Best,

Alistair

Am I to assume then that they are rather more of them over here (proportionally to our schoolgoing population) than over here?  There still was a lot of traffic at the school, but a lot of that was people dropping their kids off on the way to work.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #87 on: 19:54:47, 26-09-2007 »

Our Gordian guardian invented quite enough new taxes while he was Chancer - for heaven's sake don't encourage his little Darling to continue in the same vein!...
He should raise the basic rate of income tax (and the higher rates) instead - though I'm sure that wouldn't be acceptable to Alistair's Thatcherite views on taxation.

The problem with taxes under New Labour is not that they are too high, but that they are too low.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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« Reply #88 on: 23:39:37, 26-09-2007 »

Our Gordian guardian invented quite enough new taxes while he was Chancer - for heaven's sake don't encourage his little Darling to continue in the same vein!...
He should raise the basic rate of income tax (and the higher rates) instead - though I'm sure that wouldn't be acceptable to Alistair's Thatcherite views on taxation.

The problem with taxes under New Labour is not that they are too high, but that they are too low.
OK - allow me just to have a little yawn first - before repeating that my views on taxation are not specifically "Thatcherite" at all. The points that I would make, however, are these. Firstly, there is no point in raising tax rates and/or inventing and implementing new taxes unless there is a very specific and achievable end result therefrom; taxpayers are, after all, shareholders in UK plc and, like any other shareholders, they want their results or else (and in this instance the "or else" means having - and, if necessary, exercising - the wherewithal to vote out the Chairman, CEO, etc. at that shareholders' meeting that is called the national ballot box at General Election time). Secondly, there is quite simply no useful purpose to be served by incresing the general tax burden on the taxpayer, however good and well-meaning the reason and however well-structured and achievable the end result if the taxpayer simply cannot afford to pay and therefore finds him/herself in default, especially since this result ends up costing the taxpayer him/herself.

The problem with taxes under New Labour is not that they are too low and arguably not even necessarily that they are all too high but that they are too diverse, too complex and too expensive to collect; you have only to go into any major accountancy office and observe the vast libraries of tax textbooks and consider the costs or their prepartion and distribution and the immense swathes of advice provided by taxation professionals on the back of it all to recognise this - and someone, somewhere, has to pay for all of that.

You advocate here that income tax rates should be increased. This is an old-fashioned concept even to most Old Labourites, never mind to New Labourites, Demeral Libocrats, New Nice Tories, Traditional Old Tories and Right-wing Redneckwooded Tebbocrats alike, largely, I think, because everyone knows that it's easier to avoid direct taxes such as imcome tax than it is to avoid indirect taxes such as VAT. Yet even here there are anomalies and loopholes aplenty; even without trying to get involved in the more esoteric complexities of VAT avoidance (a massive international industry in its own right), one has only to recognise that our standard rate of 17.5% is less than that which applies in France (19.6%) yet at the same time vastly greater than that which applies in Spain (7.0%), so what do people do? - well, it's obvious, isn't it? - take full advantage of these anomalies wherever and whenever they can, despite the fact that these tax rates all apply in EC member states.

We now have certain Tory, Liberal Democrat and New and Old Labour members all independently considering the possible virtues of the abolition of IHT (inheritance tax). Perhaps you would want such a tax only to remain but to be increased, despite the fact that most of those who find themselves in the IHT bracket do so only because of the recent increases in the values of their homes that have not been reflected in increases in the thresholds beneath which no IHT is payable.

One of the biggest problems with attempts to widen the net of taxation is that the more that any administration does this, the more money gets spent on research and legal avoidance and planning measures and the more complex both the taxation régime and the avoidance processes become. Someone, somewhere, always has to fund all of that, for there's no such thing as a tax-free lunch.

Gordian Brown went on a Radio 4 Today programme some while ago and repeated his then self-chosen mantra about those quaintly-termed National Insurance Contributions (which may be national, but they insure no one against any risk and their compulsory nature negates the entire notion of "contributing" - as if voluntarily - to anything) as "a contribution to the health service". He just wouldn't be argued with over this. We nevertheless know that they are nothing of the sort; they are tax by another name and the revenue derived from them is not invested in any healthcare system or even the state penson system (such as it is) but paid straight out in state benefits; now if this is what it is supposed to be for, I do not object in principle - what I did and do object to was/is the ex-chancer / present prime monster claiming that this revenue source is something quite other than what it is in reality. Had Margaret Thatcher said the same thing, I would have objected to it just as vociferously.

Anyway, please don't worry overmuch about what you believe to be my left-wing (well, "Thatcherite" was the actual term that you used, but let's not fall out over mere semantics) views on taxation, for it is surely of far greater and widespread significance that the much-loved and long-standing socialist Lord Tebbit has now publicly derided someone called David Cameron (who he?) as some kind of political failure and claimed instead for Gordian Brown the mantle of successor to Thatcher...

Best,

Alistair
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George Garnett
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« Reply #89 on: 00:06:46, 27-09-2007 »

Gordian Brown went on a Radio 4 Today programme some while ago and repeated his then self-chosen mantra about those quaintly-termed National Insurance Contributions (which may be national, but they insure no one against any risk and their compulsory nature negates the entire notion of "contributing" - as if voluntarily - to anything) as "a contribution to the health service". He just wouldn't be argued with over this. We nevertheless know that they are nothing of the sort.

Whether you take the view that the increase in NICs was or wasn't a fair way of raising the increased funds (and I don't, FWIW: I would have preferred it to have been Income Tax) I think it was true that that particular NICs increase was directly hypothecated to the parallel increase in Health Service expenditure. The Treasury never normally likes doing that but on that occasion an exception was made (for which read Gordon Brown overruled the advice he undoubtedly received Cheesy). Mantra or not, I think he was actually justified in describing it as a 'contribution to the Health Service'.
« Last Edit: 00:14:20, 27-09-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
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