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Author Topic: Brown's new vision for music education  (Read 2110 times)
Ian Pace
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« Reply #90 on: 00:09:40, 27-09-2007 »

Sorry, but describing taxpayers as 'shareholders in UK plc' sort of says it all.

Maybe you think that still believing there's value in pre-Thatcherite levels of income tax is an antiquated belief (to me this shows a typical tacit acceptance of the post-Thatcherite consensus), but I look across the Channel at the many societies there with more progressive approaches to taxation and public spending. The consensus here is so far to the right that at the moment that sort of level of sophistication is unthinkable (and seems to have few advocates here, either).
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
ahinton
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« Reply #91 on: 08:11:19, 27-09-2007 »

Sorry, but describing taxpayers as 'shareholders in UK plc' sort of says it all.
Au contraire, I don't think it says very much at all, except that there obviously has to be some form of taxation if certain taxpayer's expectations are to be met - and there is no justifiable reason for the taxpayer not to include in those expectations at least a reasonable sense of value for money being given by the Treasury.

Maybe you think that still believing there's value in pre-Thatcherite levels of income tax is an antiquated belief (to me this shows a typical tacit acceptance of the post-Thatcherite consensus), but I look across the Channel at the many societies there with more progressive approaches to taxation and public spending. The consensus here is so far to the right that at the moment that sort of level of sophistication is unthinkable (and seems to have few advocates here, either).
Tax pre-Thatcher did at least have the advantage of greater transparency and simplicity, even though income tax in those days was vastly higher than it has ever been since, but in that era far more of the working population was employed and far less self-employed and there were far fewer home-owning and shareholding workers than there have been since, so, to be fair to both ways of taxation, the climate in which the taxes are imposed has changed considerably (not that this alone justifies either) - furthermore, far fewer working people had estates that would upon death become subject to the predecessors of inheritance tax.

The greatest problem with present-day UK taxation, as I have suggested previously, is its vast range and complexity and the consequently high cost of administration and collection - costs which are reflected in and compounded by the miles upon miles of taxation tomes and the fees of accountants, lawyers and financial advisers who help their clients to reduce their tax burden as far as possible.

Not for nothing has it been suggested that if every taxpayer made use of legitimate tax reduction/avoidance advice and everyone entitled to state benefits claimed every penny of them, the Treasury would find itself in a far more parlous state than Northern Rock recently did (and, in raising this, I am in no sense talking about breaches of tax or benefit law).

We have now, however, come rather a long way from Gordon Brown, vision and music education in the country of which he is prime minister, so I think that it would be good to get back onto that ground.

Best,

Alistair
« Last Edit: 10:43:17, 27-09-2007 by ahinton » Logged
time_is_now
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« Reply #92 on: 11:04:08, 27-09-2007 »

taxpayers are, after all, shareholders in UK plc
Erm. That's news to me.

(News to some others too, by the looks of things.)
« Last Edit: 11:08:15, 27-09-2007 by time_is_now » Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Tony Watson
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« Reply #93 on: 11:13:02, 27-09-2007 »

taxpayers are, after all, shareholders in UK plc and, like any other shareholders, they want their results or else.

There are many people in the UK who don't pay taxes (and I'm not saying that everyone should) but I'm going to be controversial and say that I thought that Thatcher's poll tax was the right idea but just badly implemented. The more that people have a stake in things, the more they consider their responsibilities and appreciate the value of services and how public money is spent.
« Last Edit: 12:28:42, 27-09-2007 by Tony Watson » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #94 on: 11:27:58, 27-09-2007 »

taxpayers are, after all, shareholders in UK plc and, like any other shareholders, they want their results or else.

There are many people in the UK who don't pay taxes (and I'm not saying that everyone should) but I'm going to be controversial and say that I thought that Thatcher's poll tax was the right idea but just badly implemented. The more that people have a stake in things, the more they consider their responsibilities and appreciate the value services and how public money is spent.
Any flat-rate tax is by definition unfair though, isn't it? (The poll tax was one of the main reasons I left the country in the early 1990s.)
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richard barrett
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« Reply #95 on: 11:31:28, 27-09-2007 »

taxpayers are, after all, shareholders in UK plc
Erm. That's news to me.
Indeed. Shareholders have an influence over the policy "their" company follows. We had more of a stake in how the country was run when utitilities were state-run, ie. before they were sold off cheaply and ended up in the hands of ramshackle operations whose CEOs take home astronomical salaries.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #96 on: 11:34:58, 27-09-2007 »

Any flat-rate tax is by definition unfair though, isn't it?

The congestion charge for example? <GD&R>
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #97 on: 11:39:07, 27-09-2007 »

Furthermore, shareholders' influence is directly proportional to the amount of stock they own (a majority shareholder obviously has far more influence than one who owns a small handful bought during a government sell-off, for example). If the voting system was like that, then those who pay higher taxes would have more votes in elections - I can't believe even Alistair would advocate that. Redistributive taxation works on the principle that tax is collected from the better-off to help support the less fortunate, whether or not the former perceive themselves to directly benefit from such a thing. The poll tax negated all of that, and was a reversion to 14th century economics. Even the biggest sceptic towards ideologies of progress would surely concede that we've moved on somewhat for the better since then?
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #98 on: 11:41:49, 27-09-2007 »

Any flat-rate tax is by definition unfair though, isn't it?
The congestion charge for example? <GD&R>
Of course. While in that particular case the effect is very welcome in most ways, dealing with the congestion problem by charging poorer people proportionately more is a pretty grotesque way of doing it. Well, what would you do, I hear you ask. I would ban all private transport from the centre of the city and abolish public transport fares altogether. Next question.

 Roll Eyes
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ahinton
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« Reply #99 on: 11:45:16, 27-09-2007 »

taxpayers are, after all, shareholders in UK plc
Erm. That's news to me.
It was intended as a euphemism, of course, rather than to be taken absolutely literally, but the point of that euphemism is that taxpayers don't just pay tax because the government says so and because "it's the law" but in order to make business service provision possible (by which I mean healthcare, public transport, etc., all of which are run by businesses - the fact that they are for the most part public rather than private businesses should make no difference in reality). Taxpayers are, in other words, investors; the only difference between this kind of investment and any other kind is in its the compulsory nature. At least, that's the way I see it. On a local taxation level, for example, whilst it might seem inconceivable in practice for a local authority's spending policies to be so financially successful that they make an overall profit, it could be imagined that it might pay a dividend to its shareholders (i.e. council taxpayers) even if only by way of a reduction in subsequent tax invoices; not for nothing did someone recently say that, in Bath, where I live, had the local authority invested wisely over the years in the city under its charge, it would be paying the residents by now rather than the other way around. Of course I accept that this kind of thing is an exceedingly unlikely scenario, but it remains technically possible...

Best,

Alistair
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #100 on: 11:46:57, 27-09-2007 »

There are many things, including public transport, that could probably be provided free for all via taxation with little negative financial impact on a large number of people, I reckon (high-earners would pay a bit more through their taxes, but they can afford it). For example, I can't imagine it would be all that costly for a government to provide free good quality wireless internet access for everyone. However, the companies that currently profit from such a thing would certainly not like their source of income taken away, and they and others have (through the money they give) a direct effect upon the policies and actions of politicians in all the main parties.

The post from Alistair directly above this one totally writes out redistributive taxation from the picture, alas.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
richard barrett
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« Reply #101 on: 11:52:55, 27-09-2007 »

(by which I mean healthcare, public transport, etc., all of which are run by businesses - the fact that they are for the most part public rather than private businesses should make no difference in reality)
Yes it should! The idea that they should be "businesses" rather than "services" is a crucial part of Thatcher's redefinition of the agenda. A "service", as its name implies, exists in order to "serve". A "business", while it might incidentally provide a service, is in the "business" of making money for its owners. Completely different (and indeed fundamentally incompatible) priorities, in other words.
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ahinton
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« Reply #102 on: 11:53:02, 27-09-2007 »

taxpayers are, after all, shareholders in UK plc and, like any other shareholders, they want their results or else.

There are many people in the UK who don't pay taxes (and I'm not saying that everyone should) but I'm going to be controversial and say that I thought that Thatcher's poll tax was the right idea but just badly implemented. The more that people have a stake in things, the more they consider their responsibilities and appreciate the value services and how public money is spent.
Any flat-rate tax is by definition unfair though, isn't it? (The poll tax was one of the main reasons I left the country in the early 1990s.)
Yes, I believe that it is and for that reason I never agreed with the "poll tax" as levied.

Best,

Alistair
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #103 on: 11:56:43, 27-09-2007 »

(by which I mean healthcare, public transport, etc., all of which are run by businesses - the fact that they are for the most part public rather than private businesses should make no difference in reality)
Yes it should! The idea that they should be "businesses" rather than "services" is a crucial part of Thatcher's redefinition of the agenda. A "service", as its name implies, exists in order to "serve". A "business", while it might incidentally provide a service, is in the "business" of making money for its owners. Completely different (and indeed fundamentally incompatible) priorities, in other words.
One of the great myths that enables the 'businesses are services' ideology to continue is the idea that in the marketplace, the consumers rather than the producers run things. It ain't so.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #104 on: 12:02:49, 27-09-2007 »

Alistair

I don't know what you think 'euphemism' means but I can't make any sense of your response above. A euphemism is a nice way of paraphrasing something unpleasant, whereas you don't seem to think there's anything unpleasant about the idea of, as you put it, 'UK plc'.

While we're on the subject of definitions, your continual attempt to present your beliefs as if they were natural/obvious/simple common sense etc. is the very embodiment of what's meant by the term 'ideology'. As Alain Robbe-Grillet said in a different context, every writer believes himself to be a realist; similarly, I might suggest, every ideologue believes himself not to be one.
« Last Edit: 12:16:46, 27-09-2007 by time_is_now » Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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