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Author Topic: The Cultural Elite Does Not Exist (Allegedly)  (Read 1381 times)
calum da jazbo
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« Reply #45 on: 16:10:57, 20-12-2007 »

It is interesting careful and refereed academic research with as noted large samples.

The consumption categories are taken from another research study which arrived at them by analysing arts/culture 'consumption'; concert, theatre, cinema going etc; (and not any form of production which would also be interesting to look at). They are silly attention grabbing, but rather diverting names tthat mask a mixed measure of consumption intensity and breadth in a given culture domain.

Inactive = not much of anything at all
Paucivore = some sampling but not a lot
Univore = more intensive consumption but focused within an interest that is part of a domain
Omnivore = broad and intense sampling within a domain

It is my understanding that the terms are to refer to within a domain so that a music omnivore would consume classical, stage, rock, jazz, world more broadly and deeply than an omnivore who would consume deeply within one interest.

The key distinction for the researchers is between Class (employment contract and income as markers in conjunction with the NSO calssification of occupations and taken to mean economic postion and circumstance with no implication of any cognitive or cultural factors - simply life chances) and Status (Occupational prestige and affiliation patterns well established through decade or more of rresearch in a half dozen or so countries the social pecking oreder that most certainly carries cognitive and cultural values.)

Class predicts voting better than Status ie we vote for our interest; Status predicts values better than class, ie we approve/disapprove on our values derived/supported by social affiliations/exclusions)

Higher status individuals will on average consume more culture, more broadly and more deeply. higher class individuals may or may not consume culture. Since education and professional standing drive status, this entails that education influences cultural consumption; hence we should make much more effort in schools to promote culture, since its its consumption is driven by values and relationships that may be much more amenable to influence than Class. Culture and its consumption is a tractable object of public policy. At least that is how i read the research on muy current understanding of it.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #46 on: 17:50:01, 20-12-2007 »

They are silly attention grabbing, but rather diverting names tthat mask a mixed measure of consumption intensity and breadth in a given culture domain.

Indeed they are, and these odious neologisms give an air of pseudo-gravitas to the results which seems unwarranted on further reading of the results. Down my pub, the term "people who couldn't give a toss" might have been applied to one of these groups with no loss of academic credibility Wink

But one might get 10 quid for submitting them to Pseud's Corner, at least Smiley
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operacat
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« Reply #47 on: 12:39:58, 21-12-2007 »

By failing to even provide a category for a group of people whose preference is for high culture, it seems to me that this research is so flawed as to be of very questionable worth.
I would even question what it means to have a "preference for high culture".

No doubt there are some people who are into high culture for the sake of it being high culture, and many others (including several on this board) who are highly intellectual and are stimulated by many different forms of serious art and culture.

I have a passion for music.  I couldn't care less about it being "high culture".

Well, exactly! The fact that it's 'high culture' - well, it doesn't say anything about ME, other than the fact that I enjoy it!! I always get annoyed and upset about people who think that the arts are only for middle-class people, and the rest of us OUGHT NOT to be interested in the arts - had a very long argument about this on OPERA-L once; although the terms of reference might be slightly different in the US (it's a very US-based forum), there is still the attitude that opera is not 'for the masses' and OUGHT not to be 'for the masses', it ought only to be for the ELITE, i.e. 'us' - whoever WE are!!
Well look, I'm unemployed and live in a council flat - but I've been an opera-lover for about 45 years, and I did my Ph.D on Wagner. Does the fact that I'm unemployed and live in a council flat mean I OUGHT NOT TO LOVE OPERA???  It's nonsense!!! Although I do know people who have been brainwashed into thinking that the arts are 'too elitist for the likes of us'. It's time people got it through their heads - it's not the AUDIENCE who are the elite - it's the PERFORMERS!!! (At least I hope so - that's why we go to see them!!!)

OK, rant over - for the time being!

  
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I have some interest in straight theatre, negligible interest in art and poetry, zero interest in dance, and I don't read all that much (what I do read is mainly non-fiction and historical novels).  I do have an analytical mind, but my reaction to music (and music-drama) is largely emotional and sensory.

So am I in the same category as somebody who goes to Glyndebourne because the chaps they went to Henley with had a spare ticket?  Or as somebody who is constantly in search of an intellectual challenge and finds the various facets of "popular" culture bland and unsatisfying?

Actually, I struggle to think of any subject for a survey about people's preferences and choices which could ever result in the entire population of the UK placed into four handy pigeonholes.
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operacat
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« Reply #48 on: 12:42:11, 21-12-2007 »




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I agree that there might be a wide variety of different motivations that people have when going to concert-halls and galleries, but I do think that the concepts still have some meaning.  For instance, if it was shown that, say, people are more likely to go to the opera if they are from an upper-class background, irrespective of education, that would be a meaningful statement to me.  It would take some more investigation to interpret, of course, but there is something to it I think.  Or rather, there would be, if &c..

I don't go to the opera because I have an "upper-class background", whatever that is!! I go to the opera because I love opera!!!
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operacat
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« Reply #49 on: 12:46:12, 21-12-2007 »



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Fair point, Inky, but I am not sure whether this "opera as a toff's pleasure" argument still washes (except, perhaps, with the SWP for emotive kneejerk value only)?

Hey, some of my best friends are in the SWP!!! Cheesy
Actually they're not, but it is true that I seem to lead two parallel lives, or at least have two parallel sets of friends - my opera cronies, as my partner disparagingly calls them, who never come to political meetings, and my comrades in GREEN LEFT and AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, who never come to the opera!!!

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:DAs has been widely mentioned (on these boards and elsewhere) - a ticket to Premier League footy costs at least as much as mid-price tickets to the Coli (and rather more than Opera North, ETO, etc).   Tickets to rock concerts at decent venues come in the other side of 30 quid, and often hyperbolically more than that.    I just did a quick look on the net, and Bruce Springsteen is "from £45", Kylie Minogue is "from £49".  By contrast, IGI and I went to Verdi's Macbeth at Sadler's Wells and paid £30.

Yes, they will say, but for Netrebko in Vienna they are paying £250?!?!   And in answer to that, look what tickets for Elton John were going for on the black market?  And yes, people fly internationally to see Elton too, and spend money on hotels and flights and concert tickets... and pronounce themselves well pleased with the fun they had for their money.  And why not, if they enjoy it?  (Elton John sold-out in Moscow, btw - cheapest tix were US$200, top-price were US$800).

So I would say that the "price thing" is a red herring, overall.
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operacat
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« Reply #50 on: 12:51:42, 21-12-2007 »

Just as a matter of interest, does a survey exist showing what percentage of the social élite are actually interested in matters cultural? I'm not convinced that it's going to be all that much higher the overall average....

And no, inko, I wouldn't accept such figures as justification for a cut in subsidies for the Arts at all    Undecided

yes, exactly...didn't the British aristocracy at one point have a reputation for being Philistine and proud of it? They thought the arts were a bit sissy??!!!
As I said in a previous mailing, the ELITE in the arts are the artists, not the audience.
Love of the arts doesn't make us into better people, it just makes us into happier people!!
It also doesn't make us richer - it makes us very much poorer, because we have to spend money on tickets!!
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #51 on: 13:32:03, 21-12-2007 »



Quote
Fair point, Inky, but I am not sure whether this "opera as a toff's pleasure" argument still washes (except, perhaps, with the SWP for emotive kneejerk value only)?

Hey, some of my best friends are in the SWP!!! Cheesy
Actually they're not, but it is true that I seem to lead two parallel lives,

A further irony here is that - with a few exceptions - the majority of performers in opera are very ordinary people, most have had State schooling, there is a heavy sprinking of left-voting souls amongst them (pace the industrial action at the Paris Opera and La Scala recently and ongoing).  Nor are they in the slightest "precious" about their art - many/most of them will go out to nightclubs, rock or jazz events, and some of them are even active in those genres (viz Peter Hoffmann as a well-known example.... but I know another tenor here in Moscow who sings both Mozart and rock, very successfully in both genres.. and a Leporello/Sarastro who does cabaret and revue).

I think it sometimes comes as something of a surprise to people like the Fiends Of The Royal Opera to discover that their heroes and heroines are quite regular and normal people offstage.  In fact my entire repertoire of crude and obscene jokes was learnt from singers...  primarily from mezzo-sopranos, I might add Wink
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MT Wessel
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« Reply #52 on: 18:17:31, 21-12-2007 »

.... Fiends Of The Royal Opera ....
I presume that is not a typo.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #53 on: 18:26:10, 21-12-2007 »

The producers of high culture have generally inhabited a lower class of society to the consumers of the same for many many centuries.
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Baz
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« Reply #54 on: 20:24:48, 21-12-2007 »

The producers of high culture have generally inhabited a lower class of society to the consumers of the same for many many centuries.

What a wonderful proclamation Ian! Would you care, therefore, to give us the fruits of your learning by imparting some actual evidence, preferably of a distinctly non-political genus (the "political" being of little or no interest or relevance to the assertion), that supports this assertion historically in terms of sociological criteria and interaction? Thanks.

Baz
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MT Wessel
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« Reply #55 on: 00:24:59, 28-12-2007 »

The producers of high culture have generally inhabited a lower class of society to the consumers of the same for many many centuries.
Er. Careful Brother Baz because surely Brother Pace is correct here ....
« Last Edit: 00:48:53, 28-12-2007 by MT Wessel » Logged

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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #56 on: 04:02:38, 28-12-2007 »

I think it sometimes comes as something of a surprise to people like the Fiends Of The Royal Opera to discover that their heroes and heroines are quite regular and normal people offstage.  In fact my entire repertoire of crude and obscene jokes was learnt from singers...  primarily from mezzo-sopranos, I might add.

What have we come to if ladies who make crude and obscene "jokes" are regarded as ordinary and normal? Is it not simply further evidence of the terminal cultural decadence which has been going on now for a hundred years and which we so often lament? High standards of thought behaviour and endeavour are in the end all are not they?
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Lord Byron
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« Reply #57 on: 06:16:36, 28-12-2007 »

"There are certain individuals who fit this description, but they are too few in number to figure in any survey-based analysis."  Roll Eyes
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Baz
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« Reply #58 on: 06:29:06, 28-12-2007 »

The producers of high culture have generally inhabited a lower class of society to the consumers of the same for many many centuries.
Er. Careful Brother Baz because surely Brother Pace is correct here ....

There can be no "surely" about it unless the sentence bears a question mark. What I was questioning was a) [as per the research that started this thread] the implied assumption that "class" and "the production/consumption of high culture" were causally linked at all; and b) that it was valid to make this assumption with regard to the history of high culture over "many many centuries".

That there have been times in the past when it was socially conventional to assume this link is undeniable. Indeed the very birth and evolution of Opera shows this clearly in its aristocratic and courtly origin and associations. But when Mozart latterly moved his work out of such aristocratic circles, and into the public opera house, we see evidence of an erosion of this previous status quo.

In earlier centuries we might think of all the ecclesiastical patronage of high culture (including music). Yet vast quantities of it were widely published and disseminated causing its exposure to a wide churchgoing clientele. Again this questions the assumption that "class" and "consumption" necessarily connect so neatly.

Baz
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #59 on: 09:41:21, 28-12-2007 »

That there have been times in the past when it was socially conventional to assume this link is undeniable. Indeed the very birth and evolution of Opera shows this clearly in its aristocratic and courtly origin and associations. But when Mozart latterly moved his work out of such aristocratic circles, and into the public opera house, we see evidence of an erosion of this previous status quo.


You could easily argue that the status quo had been eroded much earlier. In 1638 Cavalli - along with his associates Orazio Persiani, Felicita Uga, and Giovanni Balbi - took the lease of the small and decrepit Teatro di San Cassiano in Venice, which had to be refitted and decorated before a first season of commercial opera could open there (with Le Nozze di Teti e Peleo).  No nobleman or patron was involved - this was entirely a "bums-on-seats" operation which flourished or failed according to whether the public bought tickets. The cramped space at San Cassiano, and the need to reduce expenditure as far as possible, caused a radical rethink in the way works were written.  The luscious rich scorings of Monteverdi were out - replaced by a small string ensemble whose players could optimally double on a few other instruments. Gone too was the large chorus - replaced by a small semi-chorus, or ideally no chorus at all. Complicated and expensive stage machinery was also in short supply, and plot-lines that required the Gods to appear in Heaven, or Neptune to emerge from the briny deep disappeared.  Busenello's libretti about political- and sex-scandals (ideally, if possible, both at once) were a better "sell" than allegorical stories of Greek & Roman deities. Faustini appeared as the second librettist - almost all of his stories involve the supernatural, ghosts, and other crowd-pulling stuff.  These mould-breaking changes became even more notable in Cavalli's next venture - opening a public opera house in Naples, where the boisterous audiences had no time at all for deities, and preferred stories of comical and venal servants who won-out over their masters.  Cavalli's role as a "producer" of Monteverdi's later works is clear here - the scoring of ULISSE and POPPEA is entirely different from ORFEO, and requires just a small ensemble (no cornetts, sackbutts etc are scored... although this hasn't stopped modern performances from introducing them anyhow).  And the plot-line of POPPEA ("Shock horror: Emperor divorces loyal wife to marry exploitative gold-digger") is lightyears away from the underworlds of ORFEO, and could easily be off the front page of any of the UK's red-tops (hmmm, Sarkozy comes to mind, doesn't he?  Now there's a great production concept...)

Certainly it's true that Cavalli managed to hang on to his well-paid posts as organist and maestro di capella in various Venetian churches, offering him a financial buffer against poor box office receipts, summer months in which the public would leave the city to avoid the heat, and enforced closures during Lent and other Holy Fasts.  But the opera-theatre itself remained self-supporting, and dependent on nobility only in so far as their purchase of seats or boxes brought in handy revenue.
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