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Author Topic: James MacMillan: "Atheist Liberals mean to drive religion out of popular life"  (Read 1512 times)
rauschwerk
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« Reply #30 on: 13:10:33, 03-10-2008 »

Homosexuality's a tricky one though!

I'm not aware that any genetic component of homosexuality has been established beyond doubt.
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JimD
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« Reply #31 on: 14:02:11, 03-10-2008 »

rauschwerk
I wasn't all that serious...but if someone were looking for a genetic component they'd have a bit of challenge to explain how it works.  Which brings me to...

time_is_now
First point...of course, but still tricky to see how those working against reproduction could flourish.  Second point...some from the Militant Popperian Tendency might begin to suspect people of looking for ad hoc rationalizations of counterinstances. I'd never dream of making such an accusation of course.  Always assuming a 'genetic component' were being claimed.
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MT Wessel
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« Reply #32 on: 20:50:37, 03-10-2008 »

Thanks, MrY. I must get round to reading Nietzsche.
Divvent bother yersell man. Try the Owld/New Testaments. Methinks they are much more thaumaturgical. Sad
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lignum crucis arbour scientiae
Don Basilio
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Era solo un mio sospetto


« Reply #33 on: 21:09:34, 03-10-2008 »

I have desisted from posting here.  To be quite honest, I can't bring myself to read James M's intital bit.  For someone, like me, who thinks religious language and an understanding of religious tradtions (and not some alternative scientific explanation of the world) is vital to understanding life, and catholic Christianity (ie ordinary, mainline Christianity, not some C16 Northern European take on it, emphasising sin and guilt and personal experience as the be all and end all of it, and an awareness that other people are of infinite value, and we should put ourselves out to be kind to other people) for me reflects the wonder and challenges of human life, it all sounds deeply depressing.

I think the word "liberal" is so vague that it should be avoided whenever possible, particularly as a general term of abuse. 

Edit to include a bit I left out late at night.  I think TF has saved me the trouble of looking up Macmillan.

« Last Edit: 11:57:48, 04-10-2008 by Don Basilio » Logged

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
thompson1780
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« Reply #34 on: 21:37:29, 03-10-2008 »

Erm, and another thing.  Do the Liberals actually have any influence on popular life?  In the article they talk about a liberal elite (??).  They also come up with only one thing that could be viewed as a non-religious body having an influence on a religious body.  (i.e. that a 50% religious BBC is implicitly assumed to have an influence on a 70% religious public.)

Hmmmm, lots of leaps here, not all logical.....

Tommo
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #35 on: 21:40:08, 03-10-2008 »

Liberal has a definite meaning as I understand it in Marxist terminology.

Otherwise it is an abverb, not an adjective, it is a set of standing orders, not an agenda.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
richard barrett
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« Reply #36 on: 01:21:14, 04-10-2008 »

Homosexuality's a tricky one though!

I'm not aware that any genetic component of homosexuality has been established beyond doubt.

There doesn't need to be a "genetic component" in the form of actual "gay genes" for it to have played a part in human evolution in exactly the way that time_is_now describes. Evolution is a far more complex interaction between living organisms and their environment than it was possible for Darwin to see. This does not make The Origin of Species "wrong". Darwin (and Gregor Mendel) established an entire field of study whose basic principles have stood up to every scientific test since its inception.

I wonder how many people who jump to wildly wrong conclusions about what Dawkins meant by "selfish gene" have actually read that book (or the somewhat more technical one that came after it, The Extended Phenotype, whose central thesis would certainly lend weight to the idea that "non-selfish" behaviours can be significant factors in evolution). Just because a particular kind of behaviour doesn't directly result in reproduction doesn't imply that it's "working against reproduction".

James Macmillan's article is not really intelligent enough to warrant any comment.
« Last Edit: 02:49:33, 04-10-2008 by richard barrett » Logged
Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #37 on: 05:25:31, 04-10-2008 »

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James MacMillan, one of the conductors of the BBC Philharmonic orchestra, claimed in a speech last night that the "ignorance-fuelled" hostility to faith shown by "metropolitan arts, cultural and media elites" risks making society bland and uniform.
Ignorance always risks making society bland and uniform, but the author provides no evidence of that hostility's existence.
...
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However, the composer, who is Roman Catholic, claimed that atheists have not succeeded in "beating religion into a pulp".
...try as they might with their atheist truncheons.

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"The campaigning atheists, as opposed to the live-and-let-live variety, are raising their voices because they recognise that they are losing; the project to establish a narrow secular orthodoxy is failing." He added that the religious must carry on expressing their beliefs in the face of growing opposition.
So is the opposition to religion failing or growing? Can it do both?

Quote
"A smug ignorance, a gross oversimplification and caricature that serves as an analytical understanding of religion, is the common intellectual currency. The bridge has to be built by Christians and others being firm in resisting increasingly aggressive attempts to still their voices."
Again no evidence, though there is plenty of smug ignorance and gross oversimplification to tip the scales back into some kind of equilibrium.

Quote
He concluded by saying that our lives will become meaningless unless the "mists of contemporary banality" are penetrated and the idea of the sacred is restored.
Der durchdrungene Mist der zeitgenössischen Banalität.

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"I believe it is God's divine spark which kindles the musical imagination now, as it has always done, and reminds us, in an increasingly dehumanised world, of what it means to be human."
Atheists have no musical imagination. They are also impractical and unattractive. Thank you for listening.
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JimD
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« Reply #38 on: 08:47:10, 04-10-2008 »

Just because a particular kind of behaviour doesn't directly result in reproduction doesn't imply that it's "working against reproduction".

No, though the latter might be judged a subset of the former, and even the most sophistical might have difficulty arguing that homosexuality doesn't 'work against reproduction'.

On Richard Dawkins: if I were Charles Simonyi and had endowed a Chair in Public Understanding of Science I think I'd be looking for a refund on the basis of recent outings.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #39 on: 08:58:26, 04-10-2008 »

FWIW this is what Prof D had to say on the subject:


Quote
Genes that predispose a significant minority of men to homosexuality raise a Darwinian puzzle. If homosexual men rarely father children, homosexual genes should dwindle to the low frequency expected from recurrent random mutation, a frequency below one in a million. Even if Kinsey's estimate of one in ten is high, there can be no doubt that the abundance of homosexual men is too great to have stemmed from recurrent mutation alone.

As long as the (always implausible) social science orthodoxy was maintained that homosexual inclinations were entirely made, not born, there was little problem. The recent demonstration that, not for the first time, the politically correct is factually incorrect, changes all that. Moreover, contrary to two Letters to the Editor of this newspaper, the evidence that the 'gay' gene lies on the X chromosome (which a man receives only from his mother, and cannot pass to his sons) provides no let-out. A man passes his X chromosome to all his daughters and, on average, a quarter of his grandsons. Any gene that reduces a man's daughters is subject to strong negative selection. It should, other things being equal, disappear.

When Darwinians are challenged by some seemingly un-Darwinian fact of human life, they often invoke the distortions of civilization. Why have we a taste for sugar when it rots our teeth? Because civilization blunts the cutting edge of natural selection, and in our ancestral past sugar was too scarce to do anything but good. Darwinians have framed similar theories about homosexuality: forget the ephemera of modern life, how might homosexual genes have fared during all those millennia on the African savannah?

Some of these theories note that genes have different effects in different contexts. Genes that promote homosexuality in, say, bottle-fed individuals might foster some advantageous trait in breast-fed individuals. Before the teated bottle was invented, the gene would not have surfaced as a gene 'for' homosexuality at all. It would have been a gene 'for' something quite different, perhaps resistance to a virus. Obviously I name 'bottle' and 'virus' only for the sake of argument. The general point is that the effects of a gene may depend upon context. As a special case, they may depend upon which other genes are present in the body. Homosexuality may therefore manifest itself in some individuals, as a spinoff from a gene's positive selection because of its desirable effect in other individuals. A particular version of this theory postulates a gene that causes homosexuality in males but a completely different, beneficial, effect in females.

Another theory, the 'sterile worker,' starts from the well-understood observation that worker bees, ants, wasps, termites and naked mole-rats divert their energy and time away from reproduction and towards the welfare of their young collateral relatives. Perhaps Pleistocene children, while their macho fathers were away hunting, were left under the protection of a gay uncle? The uncle's genes, including those promoting homosexuality, would have a good chance of being reproduced by the children whom he protected as surrogate father.

Incidentally the newly discovered 'gay gene', being on the X chromosome, could be shared by a maternal uncle's nephews (and nieces) but not by a paternal uncle's nephews. It is tantalising to recall the anthropological finding that, in those many societies where uncle replaces father as economic and protective guardian of a child, it is universally the mother's brother not the father's brother. Admittedly, this "mother's brother effect" already has an alternative Darwinian explanation.

In any case, the sterile worker theory doesn't explain why the uncles, in addition to refraining from normal masculine activities, should enjoy making love to men. Indeed one might think that, left in camp with the women, there is another obvious way in which they could benefit their genes, over and above caring for their nephews and nieces. This brings me to my own favourite, the 'sneaky male' theory.

In harem-based species, like some seals and deer, a minority of males monopolises the females, leaving a surplus of bachelors. Those supernumerary males that have no hope of displacing a harem-master sometimes specialise in an alternative, 'best of a bad job,' strategy: sneaking quick copulations with females while his back is turned. Genes promoting sneaking skills are passed on, in parallel with genes promoting the dominant male skill of bashing up other males.

You can tell harem species by their sexual dimorphism - males larger than females. Humans are less dimorphic than elephant seals (a dominant bull typically outweighs 14 females) but dimorphic enough to suggest at least some legacy of harem-based history. Clandestine matings with females may have provided the only route for surplus bachelors to pass on their genes. Their skills may have included lulling harem masters into a false sense of security, and now here is the point. A genuine preference for other males might well carry more conviction than a simulated indifference to females. By analogy, women frequently remark that they feel 'secure' in the company of homosexual men, and monarchs have staffed their harems with eunuchs. Incidentally, experts doubt the widely-promulgated story that the Ottoman Sultan Ibrahim was so jealous of a rumoured liaison between a eunuch and an unidentified odalisque that he drowned his entire 280-strong harem in the Bosporus. In any case homosexual men are not eunuchs and they can fertilise women. According to the sneaky male theory, their homosexual orientation gained them privileged access to women and a minority stream of homosexual genes prospered.

Explanations buried in Pleistocene history are always less convincing where reproduction, rather than survival, is at stake. Early death may have been largely abolished nowadays, but genes still vary in their ability to get themselves reproduced. If a homosexuality gene lowers its own probability of being reproduced today, and yet still abounds in the population, that is a problem for commonsense as much as for Darwin's theory of evolution. And, intriguing as several of these theories may be, I have to conclude that it remains a problem.
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JimD
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« Reply #40 on: 09:25:23, 04-10-2008 »

Yes, I'd seen it before: good balanced stuff, and very clear (to an evolutionary layperson like me).  Wish he'd stick to that and leave out the religion-bashing except where they venture into science.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #41 on: 16:31:15, 04-10-2008 »

A particular version of this theory postulates a gene that causes homosexuality in males but a completely different, beneficial, effect in females.
Which if the gene's effect is not 'homosexuality' but just 'being sexually attracted to blokes' seems on the face of it relatively straightforward.

Poulenc and Oscar Wilde both had kids, for what it's worth. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't take much sneakiness to get those genes passed on.
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MrY
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« Reply #42 on: 16:51:02, 04-10-2008 »

Thanks, MrY. I must get round to reading Nietzsche.
Divvent bother yersell man. Try the Owld/New Testaments. Methinks they are much more thaumaturgical. Sad

Or even better, read the Bible first, then read Nietzsche  Roll Eyes. The New Testament questioned and challenged everything I thought and did (in my relations with other people) and had a profound influence on me.  After that, Nietzsche came and questioned and challenged everything I thought and did, but in the complete opposite direction.  I call myself an atheist today, but am still deeply divided between a christian morality of agape and selflessness, and Nietzsche's severe criticism of it.

Anyway.  I have no references to articles to back this up, but I gathered from here and there that the scientific status quo nowadays is that homosexuality has its origin in the formation of the foetus brain in the womb.  When that part of the brain responsable for sexual attraction is formed in a low-testosterone environment, it produces a female-wired brain (regarding sexual attraction).  It's probably more complicated than that, but I'm no scientist.

If this is accurate, than there's is no homosexual gene problem. 
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Antheil
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« Reply #43 on: 17:12:37, 04-10-2008 »

Mr. Y,

A month or so ago there was on the BBC site the result of research into sexuality which seemed to prove conclusively it was as a result of the unborn babe receiving low testestorone which resulted in being gay.  Try as I might today I cannot find that link. 

Having talked to gay people I know some have said they have known since they were about 12, but some obviously cited the family circumstances.  So nature or nuture?

I am not sure why this thread about Atheists and MacMillan has reverted to gaydom, but to be gay is perfectly natural, as has been proved throughout the ages.

The Greeks had a phrase for it which at the moment I forget.

Also, I am a fan of Belgium!
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
George Garnett
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« Reply #44 on: 17:46:19, 04-10-2008 »

A particular version of this theory postulates a gene that causes homosexuality in males but a completely different, beneficial, effect in females.
Which if the gene's effect is not 'homosexuality' but just 'being sexually attracted to blokes' seems on the face of it relatively straightforward.

Just to make clear that the first quote was from The Reverend Dawkins rather than from myself. But, as I understand it, the hypothesis he is referring to there is that the gene, or gene group, in question might have an entirely different function and range of statistically likely outcomes in the case of males and females, not just a common propensity towards have strange feelings in the undergrowth for Johnny Depp. But you knew that ...   
« Last Edit: 17:51:39, 04-10-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
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