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Swan_Knight
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« on: 01:33:46, 07-06-2007 » |
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I've never heard this opera - but I notice the Pavarotti recording is going for a song on a certain shopping site.
I have a nasty feeling it may have a lot in common with La Clemenza Di Tito - the dullest Mozart opera I know. If it is, I'm almost certain not to like it.
Can anyone offer an opinion on Idomeneo and on the Pavarotti/Pritchard recording of it?
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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
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smittims
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« Reply #1 on: 10:21:46, 07-06-2007 » |
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I'm sorry to hear you find 'La Clemena d Tito' dull,as I love it and consider it a great masterpiece. I have often been moved by the terrible dilemmas experienced by the main characters.
I fear that, to misquote Classic FM, If you didn't like that , you won't love 'Idomeneo' . It is often consodered to be the better of the two works,though.
I am puzzled as to why Pavarotti has recorded it, apart from the fact that it was written for an ageing tenor (Anton Raaf) who was considered to be over the hill.I would expect the Mackerras recording (which often turns up about half-price in HMV sales) to make a better case for the work to someone who doesn't know if they will like it.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #2 on: 11:27:10, 07-06-2007 » |
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A week back Reiner described Idomeneo as "musical mogadon". I listened to bits of it on my ipod on the bus a few days back and thought it has some very beautiful music. (Eliot Gardner with Rolfe Johnson as the tenor.) It is much admired because it does not have acres of secco recitative. What it does have is acres and acres of accompanied recitative instead, which may be a joy for the discriminating Mozart lover, but I find a bit hard going... It is nearer to Gluck or Rameau than Handel - lots of chorus work and dancing. (Each act ends with a ballet a la Rameau rather than a vocal finale as in an opera buffa.) The seconda donna Elettra is a wonderful part: she is completely off her head and her arias in Acts 1 & 3 are spine tingling. (Act 1 aria leads directly into a storm chorus.) Her Act 2 aria is a beautiful sicilliana, but given her character it is completely surreal. The Act 2 quartet has been, shall we say, variously rated. I get the impression members think it over rated. Altogether a very worthy opera.  |
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« Last Edit: 11:30:31, 07-06-2007 by Don Basilio »
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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George Garnett
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« Reply #3 on: 11:58:26, 07-06-2007 » |
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Altogether a very worthy opera. Ouch!  But thank you for the thought about Gluck in particular but also Rameau, Don B. I hadn't thought of that explicitly before but I think it does help to hear it as very much based in and building on that tradition rather than as a 'not quite there yet' version of one of the later Mozart operas. I have a soft spot for it because it was the first 'real' opera I ever saw live and was just knocked sideways by the sound and dramatic sexiness of opera in the flesh. It might have been different if I had come to it later. I'm afraid, for me, La Clemenza di Tito (which also looks back to Gluck?) is the one that still feels a bit on the "worthy" side although I would entirely accept that it is the finer work. |
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« Last Edit: 12:01:28, 07-06-2007 by George Garnett »
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harpy128
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« Reply #4 on: 14:02:18, 07-06-2007 » |
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 How can you? La Clemenza di Tito is so moving - poor Sesto. And so dramatic - that bit where they have set fire to the Capitol, for instance. Tito is a bit of a wimp, admittedly. I find most of Idomeneo a bit of a yawn but there's probably something I'm not getting.
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Tam Pollard
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« Reply #5 on: 22:21:00, 07-06-2007 » |
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I defy anyone to listen to the Mackerras recording of Clemenza and find it dull - of course, it helps that he's quite ruthless in culling the recitatives. This is late Mozart and there is some very fine writing (the overture is especially fine).
As to Idomeneo, I think it is fair to say it isn't in the same league as Mozart's best writing and can be accused of dullness. But there is some beautiful music (though I think it could be very dull in the opera house without a good production). Again, you can't go far wrong with Mackerras.
I'm not sure how much liking of one impacts on the other, since I don't really think they're terribly similar.
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smittims
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« Reply #6 on: 09:15:10, 08-06-2007 » |
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I wonder if people think Mozart's 'other' operas are 'dull' because they lack the lively variety of the 'big five',in the same way that 'Zauberflote' and 'Don Giovanni ' remained popular ih the 19th century, because they had features which were more similar to 19th century grand opera.
I think this is in some way to judge the earlier operas anachronistically.If one really listens to them, 'Marvels unfold'.
Whe I was in my 20s I thought Mozart overrated,but I knew only the late symphonies and concertos,and a few serenades,and those not well. About ten years ago I started really listening to the quartets,quintets,sonatas,and the operas, and I'm very glad I did.
I love all Mozart's operas.Last week I listened again to 'La Finta Semplice' and marvelled at the melodic invention,ever fresh. Maybe this is because as I get older I get much more satisfaction out of simple melodic music,than I did in the days when the taller a score was,the more interesting I thought the music.
I was thrilled with the ROH 'Mitridate, Re di Ponto' a couple of years ago,and 'Lucio Silla' perhaps his first really great opera,is a profound masterpiece of amazing compositional virtuosity. But you need to hear it in context and try to forget later music.Then its freshness and originality really come out.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #7 on: 11:08:11, 08-06-2007 » |
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Right, that makes my mind up. I will try to get to Titus at the ENO this month.
I'm sorry to say, Swanknight, that my idea of a really dull opera is Lohengrin.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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smittims
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« Reply #8 on: 11:36:22, 08-06-2007 » |
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Yes, I often feel Lohengrin could have been shortened without harming the drama or the music overall. Relatively few things actually HAPPEN in the plot .
I was alarmed to hear that 'Prince Igor ' is often performed with one whole act missing (the third,I think) without suffering. One doesnt hear that with many operas.Imagine doing it with 'Tristan'.
But I've often felt Pfitzner's 'Palestrina' is easier to take with the second act omitted. It doesn't half go on,and the outer acts make sense without it.
Any other candidates for pruning/lopping? ,
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #9 on: 12:11:06, 08-06-2007 » |
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This is hearsay, which I think I heard on the Met quiz.
Callas suggested some well known opera could be cut, and was asked which part she would shorten, to which she replied
"The baritone's"
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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harpy128
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« Reply #10 on: 14:45:36, 08-06-2007 » |
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Hope you like the ENO Clemenza if you go, Don B. I didn't like the opera as much myself before I saw that production; the time before (Glyndebourne) it did strike me as a bit static, though regardless of production it has a lot of great music of course.
There are one or two peculiar things about the McVicar one but as usual with his productions it's successful at showing the dynamics between the characters, which is what brings the thing to life IMO.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #11 on: 15:58:28, 09-06-2007 » |
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Right, that makes my mind up. I will try to get to Titus at the ENO this month.
I didn't like the opera as much myself before I saw that production. OK, it's a deal! I wasn't planning on going (partly because I am becoming a bit resistant to David McVicar's approach) but I think I had better. I'll try not to make it a 'duty' visit  . |
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #12 on: 09:29:45, 10-06-2007 » |
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Any other candidates for pruning/lopping? ,
Its not an opera which I appreciate, but I would be very happy to see everything cut from Der Rosenkavalier between the Presentation of the Silver Rose and the Trio. I know that means missing Baron Och's slurpy waltz, but I can do without it. |
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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smittims
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« Reply #13 on: 09:54:11, 10-06-2007 » |
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Funny you should say that, Don Basilio, over the years I have come to exactly the same conclusion.I think 'Rosenkavalier ' goes off astonishigly about the middle of act two.I don't even like the trio very much,and can be happy with just act one,especially the long conversation between the lovers.
Although I didn't hear it until I knew the complete opera, I find the old HMV abridged recording has nearly everything I want,plus Lotte Lehmann,one of my top all-time favourite singers.. .
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smittims
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« Reply #14 on: 10:02:56, 10-06-2007 » |
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I loved your Callas anecdote ,which sounds very true to me! She was as witty as her New-York upbringing implies.
One story which is not apocryphal concerns Walter Legge's understandable efforts to get her to make an LP with Otto Klemperer who was at that time EMI's other top-selling Classical artist.
K: I have heard your Norma, good,your Iphigenie, horrible. What would you like to sing?
C. The arias from Iphigenie, Maestro'.
Apparently Klemperer was delighted at this repartee.
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