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Author Topic: Britten 'could have been another Verdi...'  (Read 1075 times)
Swan_Knight
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« on: 10:48:24, 28-08-2007 »

'.....if it hadn't been for Peter Pears.'


I can't remember who said this, but I recall coming across it in a Britten biography I was browsing.  But I can't decide whether the quote is meaningless, or not......although I'm no expert on either BB or GV, I'd argue that Britten's body of operatic work is probably stronger than the Italian's: no 'galley works', nothing that the composer should have been embarrassed about ('Paul Bunyan' is actually a terrific work, as the last Covent Garden production demonstrated). 

So...what the hell does this comment mean? I think it might be a quote from Robert Tear, though I'm probably wrong.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #1 on: 11:03:15, 28-08-2007 »

I suppose the kindest interpretation is as a reference to Verdi's greater variety of work, understood in the sense that always having (or wanting) to include Pears in every opera could be considered a constraint of sorts? ...
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smittims
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« Reply #2 on: 11:18:09, 28-08-2007 »

Yes,I suppose the suggestion is that Pears influenced Britten into writing only certain operas.

But I don't think this is so. Britten's choice of subjects and his treatment  of wasvery much the product of his own personality.And he was in any case a very different kind of person frorm Verdi.

one could lampoon the statement.Without Alice , Elgar could have been another Ketelby. Without his deafness, Beethoven could have been another Hummel.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #3 on: 11:32:30, 28-08-2007 »

The extraordinary value-judgement in the quotation (presumably at Britten's expense) seems to devalue it very effectively.  I don't think BB's operatic output really stands in much need of defence?  Wink
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time_is_now
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« Reply #4 on: 11:39:19, 28-08-2007 »

I think you're right, Reiner - hence my previous response gradually becoming less convincing to me as I wrote it. Undecided I see how the comment could have been drawing attention to a significant difference between Britten and Verdi, but to imply a disparity in value seems uncomfortable. On the other hand, from a singer's point of view maybe it makes sense: unless you're actually going to do the Pears roles, I suppose a range of character and voice types makes a composer more attractive ... and presumably the thought that in any Britten opera you'd always be singing alongside Pears could be a little offputting, I don't know?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Ian Pace
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« Reply #5 on: 11:51:30, 28-08-2007 »

For all I like Britten's work, the musical devices he employs in many of the operas rarely seem truly absorbed into a coherent musical vernacular, as is certainly the case, at least to my ears, in Verdi (including in the early works). Britten picks and mixes in quite an eclectic manner, but his ideas do not often seem particularly developed (not so much in the sense of being developed through the course of a work, rather developed into something sophisticated before being employed in the work). Whereas Verdi, including in marvellous early operas such as Ernani, Attila or I Masnadierei, let alone in Rigoletto, Il Trovatore, Les vêpres siciliennes , Don Carlos and Otello, has truly absorbed a range of existing genres, techniques, styles and utterly 'made them his own'; his work is rooted in operatic tradition but rarely sounds idly derivative. Britten somehow doesn't have that same level of compositional confidence.
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #6 on: 11:52:33, 28-08-2007 »

The Verdi comment was made by Robert Tear, but the Pears one by Tippett. Tear (always rather bitter about BB, in spite of the fact that BB gave him his first big chances) felt that it was what he saw as Britten's inabilty to "go over the top" that stopped him from being "another Verdi" - too many emotional tensions. Tippett said "That's a silly statement. You can't be Verdi - that belongs to the 19th century. But I would like to have changed certain things for Ben....and there could have been some changes if he had not had Peter. But then Peter did something else for him".

All a bit muddled. As someone once said, "We don't know what he would have done if he hadn't had Pears. We do know what he created with him" - the implication being that what he produced with Pears was just as remarkable as Verdi in its way.
« Last Edit: 11:54:31, 28-08-2007 by Mary Chambers » Logged
owain
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« Reply #7 on: 11:55:32, 28-08-2007 »

Damn, Mary Chambers got there first - it's at the very end of Humphrey Carpenter's biography.  The context of the previous paragraph is important:

Quote
In 1946 Britten was quoted...: "If I had been born in 1813 rather than 1913 I should have been a romantic, primarily concerned to express my personality in music."  Arguably this was exactly what he was, and what he did.
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #8 on: 11:58:59, 28-08-2007 »

Damn, Mary Chambers got there first - it's at the very end of Humphrey Carpenter's biography.  The context of the previous paragraph is important:

Quote
In 1946 Britten was quoted...: "If I had been born in 1813 rather than 1913 I should have been a romantic, primarily concerned to express my personality in music."  Arguably this was exactly what he was, and what he did.

I was afraid someone would get there before me! Thanks for giving the reference - I should have done that.
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George Garnett
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« Reply #9 on: 11:59:42, 28-08-2007 »

The quote from Robert Tear is:

"There was a great, huge abyss in his soul. That's my explanation of why the music becomes thinner and thinner as time passed. He got into the valley of death and couldn't get out...   [Britten] could have been another Verdi. But he wouldn't give himself. He always stopped. He wouldn't quite go over the top."

Michael Tippett commented on that:

"That's a silly statement. You can't be like Verdi  -  that belongs to the nineteenth century. But I would have liked to change certain things for Ben, because of his immense possibilities. And there could have been some changes if he had not had Peter. But then Peter did something else for him."  

[Oh, two of you got there first  Grin Grin Grin].
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #10 on: 12:12:00, 28-08-2007 »

But you have given the most complete quotations, George Grin. I couldn't bring myself to quote the bit about the "great, huge abyss in his soul" - it is such utter rubbish.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #11 on: 12:15:45, 28-08-2007 »

Entirely so, Owain!

I can't see a fruitful purpose in comparing the output of two men who lived in entirely different times - unless the purpose of the comparison is to illustrate how the times shape the art?  (as if anyone seriously doubts this anyhow?).

Verdi lived in confident times when a belief in progress, industrialisation, and the dismantling of aristocratic privilege (Rigoletto...) into something more like a meritocracy with rosy prospects for many more than previously. Moreover, the reunification of Italy informs his work and speaks of the overthrowing of tyrannical regimes by forces of good (Macbeth, Otello). It's no coincidence that PETER GRIMES appeared in the final aftermath of WW2 (Hiroshima & Nagasaki were still months ahead), at a time when mankind first realised it was capable of annihilating itself with consummate ease.  The remainder of Britten's output was written against the background of the Cold War - the possibility of the "four minute warning" remained a threat throughout the era.  The chances Britten would want to write "like Verdi" are remote in the extreme.

(Moreover, this daft comparison excludes the fact that Verdi wrote almost exclusively for the stage...  Britten's work is far more wide-ranging and covers most other genres).
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Ian Pace
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« Reply #12 on: 12:45:24, 28-08-2007 »

But you have given the most complete quotations, George Grin. I couldn't bring myself to quote the bit about the "great, huge abyss in his soul" - it is such utter rubbish.
I wouldn't use the 'valley of death' phrase, but otherwise think there's a certain amount of truth in what Tear says.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
George Garnett
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« Reply #13 on: 13:04:31, 28-08-2007 »

I think it is true in a sense that Britten 'wouldn't go over the top' but that only becomes a criticism if you hold the view that all composers ought to, or that 'going over the top' is a necessary condition for producing great music.

Incidentally I do think that Robert Tear's book is one of the cattiest and most snide autobiographies I have ever read which I suppose might be a commendation or a condemnation, according to taste.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: 15:43:48, 28-08-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
Mary Chambers
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« Reply #14 on: 13:39:54, 28-08-2007 »

But you have given the most complete quotations, George Grin. I couldn't bring myself to quote the bit about the "great, huge abyss in his soul" - it is such utter rubbish.
I wouldn't use the 'valley of death' phrase, but otherwise think there's a certain amount of truth in what Tear says.

Please elaborate!


George - I do agree about Tear's book. It completely altered my view of Tear, not for the better.
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