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Author Topic: You'v got to start somewhere  (Read 1045 times)
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #15 on: 16:26:32, 08-01-2008 »

At the risk of going off topic, can I ask why so many experienced and knowledgeable opera fans have an antipathy towards Madama Butterfly? 

I really don't know.  As I've got older I have gone off Puccini generally (apart from Turandot), but, to be honest, I've never liked Butterfly - I always found it a bit dulland rather padded with self-conscious "atmosphere".

And it's not an aversion to verismo per se - give me Mefistofele or Andrea Chenier in preference to almost any Puccini any day!
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
martle
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« Reply #16 on: 16:34:44, 08-01-2008 »

Just chipping in:
The first full opera I went to was GTO's (1975?) The Rake's Progress with Rattle and designs by Hockney.



I was fifteen, had already devoted myself to being a musician and was bowled over by it. All the more odd, then, that for the next 15 years I simply could not be doing with opera, for all the usual and boringly predictable reasons. It took someone (rather like the hardcore crowd on this board) who knew the medium inside out and could explain its weirdnesses and wonders to me for that to change. Never looked back since then!
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Green. Always green.
George Garnett
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« Reply #17 on: 16:56:46, 08-01-2008 »

The first full opera I went to was GTO's (1975?) The Rake's Progress with Rattle and designs by Hockney.

1975 sounds right to me, Martle, 2nd October 1975 in my case at the New Theatre, Oxford once it had gone on the road. Full cast list available on request if you would like it <anorak emoticon>.
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martle
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« Reply #18 on: 17:01:37, 08-01-2008 »

Gosh! Yes please, George! I caught it at the Gaumont in Southampton - what dates would that have been?
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Green. Always green.
Lobby
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« Reply #19 on: 17:15:41, 08-01-2008 »

Just chipping in too.

My first opera was Siegfried at ENO with Rita Hunter, Alberto Remedios and Norman Bailey.  I think Charles Mackerras was conducting.  I was 17 and was prompted to go by studying Eliot's The Wasteland for A level English.  Possibly not the standard choice, but I was hooked and have never looked back.  My second opera came soon afterwards: Parsifal at Covent Garden, conducted by Solti with Hoffman, Minton and Kurt Moll as Gurnemanz.

As my first ever concert at about the age of 7 or 8 was Bach's Mass in B Minor, conducted by Giulini and with Janet Baker singing the alto solos, I sometimes get the feeling that my introductions to music and opera were neither representative nor necessarily to be recommended for others.  It worked for me though.
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"I do not approve of anything that tampers with natural ignorance. Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone. The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound. Fortunately in England, at any rate, education produces no effect whatsoever."
George Garnett
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« Reply #20 on: 17:39:09, 08-01-2008 »

Can't do the precise dates The Rake's Progress would have been at Southampton, Martle, but it was presumably not more than a couple of weeks or so either side of 2/10/75 on GTO's autumn tour that year.

Tom Rakewell  -  Ian Caley
Ann Trulove  -  Susanna Ross
Trulove  -  John Michael Flanagan
Nick Shadow  -  Alan Charles
Mother Goose  -  Joyce McCrindle
Baba the Turk  -  Enid Hartie
Sellem   -  Graeme Matheson-Bruce
Keeper of Bedlam  - Keith Brookes

Bournemouth Sinfonietta (sadly now long disbanded, a grievous loss)

Conductor: Master Simon Rattle aged about 12
Director: John Cox
Designer: David Hockney



[GOSH! And we went to Ella Fitzgerald and the Count Basie Orchestra the very next evening. Those were the days. Cry
« Last Edit: 17:45:34, 08-01-2008 by George Garnett » Logged
Morticia
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« Reply #21 on: 17:51:39, 08-01-2008 »

As far as I can remember my first live opera experience was Cosi, ROH when I was about 12. It was actually a dress rehearsal and Friends of Covent Garden got reduced price tickets. My ma worked in the theatre and somehow managed to get us in. Gosh, that`s just reminded me, I remember seeing Lynn Seymour under similar circumstances. Ballet, obviously! Both were fabulous!
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harpy128
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« Reply #22 on: 17:58:10, 08-01-2008 »


I really don't know.  As I've got older I have gone off Puccini generally (apart from Turandot), but, to be honest, I've never liked Butterfly - I always found it a bit dulland rather padded with self-conscious "atmosphere".

I think it's the combination of sugariness with the composer's/audience's sort of wallowing in her misery that gets to me; a lot of operas arguably involve wallowing in misery but they aren't always sugary. I'm not a Puccini fan at all and never have been, though there are a couple I don't mind.

With respect to the original question, I imagine almost any opera would be OK as an introduction as long as you went with someone knowledgeable who you could have an interesting conversation with about it afterwards, so Don B's niece should do all right Smiley
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HtoHe
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« Reply #23 on: 18:04:54, 08-01-2008 »

I sometimes get the feeling that my introductions to music and opera were neither representative nor necessarily to be recommended for others.  It worked for me though.

I'm not sure there is a recommended route, Lobby.  I have a friend whose first opera was 'Parsifal'.  I tried to persuade him to start with something a bit lighter because I was scared he'd be put off Wagner, or even opera itself, for good; but he loved it.  By contrast when my brother lived in Germany, I took advantage of free lodgings to visit German opera houses and on my first visit he insisted on coming along with me to 'Tristan und Isolde'.  I told him he really ought to check out a recording or two to make sure he wouldn't be bored sick but he ignored me.  He'd already bought the tickets before doubts began to set in when he noticed how long it was!  Sure enough, he hated it but, to his credit, he sat through all three acts in attentive silence. 

My own first experience was a compulsory 'Don Pasquale' with the school.  I found it rather tedious and rediscovered opera through a library boxed set of 'Götterdämmerung' which I took to instantly, followed by a visit to the Liverpool Empire for 'Das Rheingold'

I still intuitively suspect that some works are more suitable for beginners of tender years.  The traditional favourites are probably popular for good reasons: 'Hänsel und Gretel' & 'The Cunning Little Vixen' always seem to go down well with children but whether they make the connection with the wider world of opera or just see the performances as a good day out I'm not sure.  All the children I've taken to see H&G loved it but afaik none of them has since shown an interest in opera.

'Madame Butterfly' is probably as good a choice as any if only because it's so popular and there will lots of people with whom Don Basilio's niece can discuss it if she feels so inclined (she could have a job finding someone with whom to share her newly-discovered enthusiasm for, say, 'Die Gezeichneten' !)
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #24 on: 18:21:48, 08-01-2008 »

My (late) father was an opera buff....he tried to ween me on to it, but never succeeded. Probably, because I had then (and still have now) an almost automatic inability to enjoy anything that someone else tells me is 'good'.  He had me listening to 'Tristan' (live radio broadcast of WNO's 1979 production) and the duet from the end of Otello act 1, but I heard nothing.

My real discovery of opera came some five years after my father's death: I was bored with rock music and took 'Das Rheingold' out of the library....didn't really 'get it' but carried on with the Ring, until - when I came to 'Siegfried', I started to understand the story and the idea of 'sung drama'. Got through all of Wagner pretty quick after that...the autumn of 1990 will always seem like a very exciting time for me!

Now, I know you're not mean to 'start' with Wagner, but it absolutely worked for me...too well, in fact, as for a long time, I find most non-Wagnerian operas disappointing in some way (I remember feeling really let down by 'Rigoletto').  I do, though, think learning opera from records - especially nowadays - is a good idea, rather than being exposed, unawares, to someone's 'radical' vision of a familiar (to operagoers) piece. 

First opera attended was WNO's 'Traviata' (Stefanos Lasarides' excellent production), closely followed by an Opera North Faust, which set the seal on my hatred of this opera in particular and on opera in English in general.   
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Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #25 on: 18:29:23, 08-01-2008 »

First opera attended was WNO's 'Traviata' (Stefanos Lasarides' excellent production), closely followed by an Opera North Faust, which set the seal on my hatred of this opera in particular and on opera in English in general.   

Have you tried the production of Faust currently in the Royal Opera's repertoire?  It's available on DVD with Gheorghiu, Alagna and Terfel, though in my view the first revival (Kelessidi, Beczala, Tomlinson) possibly had more to recommend it.

I never thought I could like this opera, then along came David McVicar and changed my mind.  That's not to say I have any expectation of ever enjoying it in any other production Wink  Awful opera Grin

As for cutting your teeth on Wagner - I am sure that had I discovered Tristan first, or Rheingold, I would have been hooked from the start.
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Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
martle
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« Reply #26 on: 18:54:33, 08-01-2008 »

Actually, talking of The Rake's Progress, I reckon you could do a lot worse for a first opera, at a relatively tender age. It's in English, for all Stravinsky's occasional infelicitudes with syntax it's pretty much crystal clear vocally (thanks also to the fastidious scoring), the storyline is easy and told without fuss, and there are some great gags. Baba the Turk starting up her refrain again once the veil is removed, like an old Ford Cortina, makes me laugh just thinking about it!

Thanks for the cast list, GG. Not one single bell has been rung.  Embarrassed
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #27 on: 19:08:07, 08-01-2008 »

Don B -

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned... but I would suggest doing your darndest to keep her away from any plot synopses, if it's not too late. Since there are surtitles (and I think that's fair enough - I wouldn't expect English sung to that music to be comprehenslble) she'll work out what's going on. I've always regretted with my Puccini experiences that I knew how they were going to end before they started...
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Mary Chambers
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« Reply #28 on: 19:10:19, 08-01-2008 »

Mine were, as I'm sure I've said before:

Britten, Let's make an opera, (The Little Sweep), at age 11. In spite of my later passion for the composer, this didn't really grab me. I found the audience songs a bit daunting, and in any case I only thought about ballet at that age.

Hansel and Gretel, at age 16-ish. We did it at school and I adored every second of it.

I didn't see any more opera until I was 22, when I went to a performance of Faust in Amsterdam that was so bad it's a marvel I ever went to an opera again. I'm joining the Faust-haters.

Just after that, Peter Grimes. Hooked for ever.
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Chichivache
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The artiste formerly known as Gabrielle d’Estrées


« Reply #29 on: 19:51:16, 08-01-2008 »

Donny

1) I suggest you take your god-daughter/niece (does that mean you have to buy two presents!) to the Mikado - I've seen it 3 times, and hope to go again in February - an absolute hoot from soup to nuts.

2) Despite being keen on classical music, I didn't get into opera until my early 30s, when I went to see Rheingold, Peter Grimes and Magic Flute at WNO within a week. The first two blew me away, but I have never got on with Flute, although I love the other mature Mozart operas.

I think Rheingold or Don Giovanni would be good for starters - magnificent music, bags of stage action. Also Carmen, especially if you leave at the interval!

I hope you both have a good time, whatever you decide on.
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wotthehell toujours gai archy
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