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Don Basilio
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« on: 21:18:54, 21-02-2008 » |
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Only if they are in English. I downloaded the J E Gardner Oberon from itunes and the dialogue is replaced by Roger Allam speaking a precis of the action. Any other comments?
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« Last Edit: 12:42:41, 22-02-2008 by oliver sudden »
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #1 on: 21:35:11, 21-02-2008 » |
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Not only do I want it, I want it like I want my recitative: done with enough of a sense of timing and drama that the very thought of trimming it, let alone leaving it out entirely, doesn't arise. Picky bugler, aren't I?  There was a Freischütz a few years ago which replaced the dialogue with a new part for Samiel. Didn't work at all. The dialogue so often flows directly into the music that it chopped up the action absurdly. And of course they couldn't leave it out entirely anyway because the Wolf's Glen scene is full of dialogue. Worse, they'd gone to the effort of equipping themselves with period instruments only to then play silly buglers with the entire nature of the piece. What a waste. |
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BobbyZ
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« Reply #2 on: 21:42:26, 21-02-2008 » |
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I have the Karl Bohm recording of The Magic Flute which has the dialogue ( in German obviously ) and it adds to the atmosphere and enjoyment for me, giving the sense of a narrative drama moving forward rather than simply a recital of arias. Since I'm not fluent in German I suppose that any deficiencies in the acting ability of the performers aren't apparent to me. If the dialogue was in English this would be much more of a consideration.
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Dreams, schemes and themes
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #3 on: 21:49:11, 21-02-2008 » |
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Yes, I certainly want it too - although I know that works like Die Zauberflote and Freischutz contain large quantities of German text that must be very tedious to non-German speakers (and, like some of Schickenader's feeble jokes, pretty tedious in part to those who do). I'm less picky about it being cut or amended, as long as the sense is preserved - but the transition from speech to song needs to be there, which is why some of the attempts at reworking the format fail dismally. And it should be spoken by the singers if possible - and, if not, at least by actors who sound plausibly like the singers (which isn't always the case - the musically excellent Bohm Entfuthrung, which I mentioned on the G and S thread, is a particularly bad offender in this respect), and recorded in the same acoustic so that it doesn't sound like an afterthought. PS - pedants will have noted the lack of umlauts in the above - if I knew how to put them into the post reply screen they'd certainly be there ....  |
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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MabelJane
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« Reply #4 on: 22:07:42, 21-02-2008 » |
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PS - pedants will have noted the lack of umlauts in the above - if I knew how to put them into the post reply screen they'd certainly be there .... Pw - I don't know how to get all those extra bits on letters either but if you google a word without, such as Entfuhrung, it will appear with the umlauts so you can copy and paste as I have here: Entführung. No doubt someone will now tell you how to do it properly!  |
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Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #5 on: 22:10:23, 21-02-2008 » |
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PS - pedants will have noted the lack of umlauts in the above - if I knew how to put them into the post reply screen they'd certainly be there .... Pw - I don't know how to get all those extra bits on letters either but if you google a word without, such as Entfuhrung, it will appear with the umlauts so you can copy and paste as I have here: Entführung. No doubt someone will now tell you how to do it properly! Doh! Never thought of cutting and pasting ....  |
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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Swan_Knight
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« Reply #7 on: 23:04:06, 21-02-2008 » |
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To be honest, I can take it or leave it. I'm not a fan of non 'through-composed' operas - they always sound too much like musicals for my liking. The finest available recording of 'Zauberflote' (Klemperer's) dispenses with the dialogue altogether and is none worse for it.
I don't like the idea, on principle, of actors taking over from singers when performing the dialogue on recordings: the singers have to hack it in the theatre, so why not on record, too?
But UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOVEVER do I want to hear dialogue translated into English: the whole idea is positively toe-curling!
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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #8 on: 00:24:44, 22-02-2008 » |
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Yup, I want the dialogue, and spoken by the same performers that are singing the roles, please. |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #9 on: 07:28:28, 22-02-2008 » |
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Re accents: we do have a thread on that at the Usage Help Forum with individual letters/names to cut and paste, or for when someone doesn't remember enough of the name to google it. On the other hand for some languages I just change my keyboard mapping and play around for a bit! The Carlos Kleiber Freischütz also has actors for the spoken bits which is silly but to my mind at least doesn't wreck the fabric of the piece as did the other recording I mentioned. It's especially silly when a character who's a high baritone (Weber even calls him a tenor I think) is given an actor with such a low voice that at one point he even speaks a contra-A.  |
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #10 on: 10:14:31, 22-02-2008 » |
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But UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOVEVER do I want to hear dialogue translated into English: the whole idea is positively toe-curling!
Quite right. I meant I only really want the dialogue in an English work. But I don't mind if dialogue is included otherwise, provided long passages (more than 30 secs) are given their own track on the CD. |
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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richard barrett
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« Reply #11 on: 11:16:59, 22-02-2008 » |
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I'm not a fan of non 'through-composed' operas - they always sound too much like musicals for my liking. If all or even some musicals were as powerful and original as Freischütz I don't think you'd be saying that! There was a Freischütz a few years ago which replaced the dialogue with a new part for Samiel. Didn't work at all. The dialogue so often flows directly into the music that it chopped up the action absurdly. And of course they couldn't leave it out entirely anyway because the Wolf's Glen scene is full of dialogue. Worse, they'd gone to the effort of equipping themselves with period instruments only to then play silly buglers with the entire nature of the piece. What a waste.
Now I don't personally agree with that, as member Sudden knows. I think Bruno Weil's version is far from a waste. The new text is thought-provoking and original contemporary writing for the theatre, and the intended disjuncture between what Samiel says, in the fictional present of the performance, and what he "dreams" (ie. the musical numbers) is only enhanced by the use of period instruments. I think of it as a radical reinterpretation rather than a "wrecking of the fabric". Having said that, Kleiber's recording is one of my favourite recordings of anything, indeed it's all so well done that I'm not really much bothered by the changes between actors and singers and their differing vocal ranges. After all, almost everyone has different ranges for their spoken and sung voices, more so with higher (sung) ranges, so that for example the Sprechgesang in the title role of Lulu often sounds like she's doing a mouse impression if it's done at Berg's notated pitch, which it mostly isn't. |
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« Last Edit: 11:25:28, 22-02-2008 by richard barrett »
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #12 on: 12:26:42, 22-02-2008 » |
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I meant 'wreck the fabric' quite objectively, at least in so far as it concerns the extent to which the performance is entitled to be presented as a realisation of the original work. I don't feel one can simply replace the dialogue with something else any more than one could replace sung recitatives in a similar manner with something quite different. The original has dialogue in which the action proceeds, alternating with music in which there's some plot but as in most operas mostly reflection (the main exceptions being at the ends of the acts - and the concentration of action set to music at the end of acts is as important for the dramatic pacing here as it is in Mozart). If the dialogue is removed only to be replaced by more reflection (and that's what happens here as far as I can remember) then the balance is inevitably altered. Each time the dialogue (or just the speech) which precedes an aria is replaced by yet another of Samiel's soliloquies, the music's connection to the action (at least, to what action still remains!) is severed - comprehensively so if the spoken passage preceding it doesn't show any realisation of having understood that there might be a potential problem. I don't feel that that recording can simply claim to be a recording of Der Freischütz without a substantial health warning - if one were to take the recitatives out of an opera (or a Passion setting or whatever), you would have to call it a selection of highlights. Neither on the other hand is the departure from the original extensive enough to enable the result to be satisfying as a new work ( Samiels Traum or whatever). That's what I mean by a waste - it's neither one thing nor the other. By the way... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Umd7w5cECEBy the way II: I've taken the liberty of fixing DB's title. Fingers crossed that it comes through in subsequent replies. |
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« Last Edit: 12:43:41, 22-02-2008 by oliver sudden »
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martle
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« Reply #13 on: 12:36:46, 22-02-2008 » |
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Ok. Yet again this board is forcing me to go back and re-encounter something I've not thought about much for ages, if ever really - in this case, Freischütz. Thanks guys. Amazing performance on that clip, Ollie! |
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Green. Always green.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #14 on: 18:20:19, 22-02-2008 » |
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I don't feel that that recording can simply claim to be a recording of Der Freischütz without a substantial health warning - if one were to take the recitatives out of an opera (or a Passion setting or whatever), you would have to call it a selection of highlights.
Given that all the music Weber wrote is actually on the recording I don't think there's much comparison with that situation. |
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