Reiner Torheit
|
|
« Reply #30 on: 08:49:54, 18-08-2008 » |
|
I've seen the marking " senza ripieni" in Handel's string parts in his oratorios, and had always imagined (?) that this referred exactly to this practice of removing the back desks from particular numbers? Here's an example - I imagine that marking is in the original, because Chrysander was reasonably scrupulous about separating his own editorial work from the original. EDIT - another factor, although banal but possibly of relevance, is that the economics of Handel's oratorio-giving were by no means the rosy picture of comfy profits often mentioned in more simplistic music-histories (with the subtext that doing God's work brings blessings upon the hard-up opera composer). In fact following the opening of DEBORAH (early months of 1745) Handel was forced to announce that he was cancelling the rest of the performances in a letter of 17 Jan in the DAILY ADVERTISER:
... I am likewise persuaded that I shall have the Forgiveness of those noble Persons, who have honour'd me with their patronage, and their Subscription this Winter, if I stop short, before my losses are too great to support, if I proceed no further in my Undertaking; and if I entreat them to withdraw three-fourths of their Subscription, one four Part of my Proposal only having been perform'd Rehearsing works with smaller forces for large body of the solo arias (which were, for many of his subscribers, the main box-office draw) would have made economic as well as musical sense - the larger body of players to add substance to the tuttis and choruses could have been rehearsed separately, and more cheaply.
|
|
« Last Edit: 09:13:29, 18-08-2008 by Reiner Torheit »
|
Logged
|
"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House" - Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
|
|
|
Ron Dough
|
|
« Reply #31 on: 09:33:36, 18-08-2008 » |
|
Having now seen martle's post, I should add that I had the impression that the variation in the number of desks CM required was quite as much for the altered quality of sound as for the dynamics: the fact that he was so immediately able to hear a different effect to what he was expecting might underline this.
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Don Basilio
|
|
« Reply #32 on: 09:52:17, 18-08-2008 » |
|
One thing that struck some of us there, was what Sir Charles was wearing. Over his white tie and cummerbund he seemed to have a black zipped fleece. The other gents were in tail coats.
|
|
|
Logged
|
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #33 on: 09:57:28, 18-08-2008 » |
|
If the programme is correct, there were 10 Firsts and 8 Seconds.
Yes that's right. For some of the quieter arias we were cut back to 6 firsts and 4 seconds. (I know our rehearsal time was limited, but it did bother me that Mackerras's immediate reaction was to cut the number of players rather than get us to play more quietly. It's not the first time this has been his method for creating dynamics either.)I agree with Martle, in that halving the size of the violin section has more of an effect on timbre than on dynamics, "lightening" rather than "quietening" the sound. Reiner's comment about rehearsal economics has for me the ring of truth about it too, given that Handel had to concern himself so much with the bottom line when putting on performances in London (and that certainly hasn't changed in the meantime ). Do you think those are reasonable comments, strina?
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
strinasacchi
|
|
« Reply #34 on: 11:33:53, 18-08-2008 » |
|
I would agree these are reasonable comments generally, but they are not the reasons Sir C gave for his decision to cut the numbers (nor did he go into the hall at any point to listen - though I'm sure some would argue that at 82 he's had enough experience not to have to?).
There were no "senza ripieno" markings in Belshazzar, and we used an edition that would have had them had they been there I think. (Actually I've never seen those markings in anything but the Messiah, though I'll cheerfully admit I've probably only played about 0.0001% of Handel's oratorio ouput.)
We would start rehearsing an aria, not exactly sight-reading but certainly coming to it as a group for the first time, with little idea of the character, situation or text, playing vaguely "normale," when Sir C would stop us and say something about it being too loud and that he'd like to reduce the numbers. There wouldn't even be an attempt to get everyone to play more quietly/softly/airily/gently - rather unfair, I think, not to give everyone that chance. If he was after a change in timbre, it would have been better psychology to say so. As it was, some of the back desk players ended up feeling neglected and undervalued, and all of us felt as if he didn't believe we could play with proper dynamics and expression - that changes in colour can only be achieved by changing the bulk.
I'm a bit reluctant to post this, as Sir C is revered in many quarters - but this is the third time I've done a project with him and been frustrated, despite his charisma, by the mentality that seems to think neither interpretation nor levels of playing in "early music" have moved on since 1987. Maybe this does him a disservice, maybe he has given a great deal of consideration to recent developments only to reject them - but if so he pretty much fails to convey that to his players. There's a great deal of affection for him, but it's mostly among the people who knew him "back in the day." He probably doesn't care much whether he gains the "respect" of irritating young(ish) upstarts like me and some of my younger colleagues, but it makes for a slightly frustrating experience.
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
|
|
« Reply #35 on: 11:49:46, 18-08-2008 » |
|
I'm sure you're right that Mackerras hasn't taken much note of developments in the last twenty years, nor in fact has he ever really been at the forefront of interpretative thinking in baroque music, particularly as far as instruments are concerned, preferring to work with modern ones until others had done the pioneering work, or at least that's one way of putting it. He's likely to know the quickest way of getting what he wants, I dare say, having had to do it like that probably more often than he would have liked.
I'll have a listen later if I have the time. I got to know Belshazzar from Harnoncourt's recording (which must have been one of the very first complete Handel oratorios to be done with baroque instruments) and as so often he and his players work together to create something that makes most other interpretations sound colourless. Just the first chord of the overture in that recording has a sound that stayed, in every detail, in my mind throughout the more than ten years between disposing of my LPs and acquiring the CD.
|
|
« Last Edit: 12:05:18, 18-08-2008 by richard barrett »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
duncan
Posts: 14
|
|
« Reply #36 on: 12:01:37, 18-08-2008 » |
|
A very enjoyable prom: I was engrossed for 3 hours. The band were excellent of course and I enjoyed the performances of all the singers. Paul Groves had a different approach to the others, but I thought it rather suited the blustering title character. Enunciation was mostly very clear from where I was standing: I could follow the performance with only an occasional glance at the libretto for reassurance. Bejun Mehta was sometimes less clear. The cuts were mentioned in the programme, which nails any conspiracy theories. A fashion correspondent writes... Sir Charles' jacket was a blouson of some kind of silky material. Very 1987 . It really needed a pair of stone-washed jeans and Big Hair. Not a terribly elegant look, but probably considerably more comfortable than a DJ if you've got a dodgy shoulder. What else should he wear? Shirt only is unacceptable and I don't see CM in Issey Miyake, which seems to be a popular alternative to the penguin suit.
|
|
« Last Edit: 12:04:54, 18-08-2008 by duncan »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Ruth Elleson
|
|
« Reply #37 on: 12:35:17, 18-08-2008 » |
|
The cuts were mentioned in the programme, which nails any conspiracy theories. Most of the cuts were mentioned in the programme. There were two or three additional points where words were supplied in the libretto for items (or parts of items) that didn't happen.
|
|
|
Logged
|
Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen, Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen, Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
|
|
|
|
martle
|
|
« Reply #39 on: 13:11:57, 18-08-2008 » |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Green. Always green.
|
|
|
Lady_DoverHyphenSole
Gender:
Posts: 63
Warning: armed with a stout hatpin or two!
|
|
« Reply #40 on: 13:20:54, 18-08-2008 » |
|
Surely a costume for conducting Die Fledermaus rather than Belshazzar, martle?
I'll get my coat (cape?)
|
|
|
Logged
|
RuthElleson: "Lady_DHS is one of the battiest people I know"
|
|
|
Don Basilio
|
|
« Reply #41 on: 15:32:13, 19-08-2008 » |
|
In the programme there was one Number 20 Accompanied Recitative.
ln my downloaded text this was split as No 20 Accompagnato and No 21 Air Thus says the Lord to Cyrus his anointed.
I was interested in the Air. The words are not more of Jennens's rhymes. As in Messiah, the words are lifted straight from the Authorised Version. They are set melodically, rather than as recit and orchestral bits, but hardly any melodic material is repeated in the course of the number. Very unusual, surely?
And sung by Iestyn Davies with a lovely tone, looking like a very earnest choirboy.
|
|
|
Logged
|
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
|
|
|
Ron Dough
|
|
« Reply #42 on: 17:59:47, 19-08-2008 » |
|
looking like a very earnest choirboy.
Come now, Don B, there's only ever been one e(a)rnest choirboy:
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Don Basilio
|
|
« Reply #43 on: 20:37:59, 19-08-2008 » |
|
Being a star boy treble has a dreadful terminus ad quem - the voice breaks.
Ernest Lough's voice broke and he sang as bass at the Temple Church, but no longer would people come to Matins there just to hear him. He died in his nineties in the last ten years, and I picked up a copy of the Order of Service for his memorial Service. The current star treble in the Temple Church choir sang "O for the wings, for the wings of a dove" and then Master Ernest's classic recording (hiss, crackle, hiss, crackle) was played again.
If I was that star treble, I would sense someone walking over my grave, but children aren't aware of mortality in in the same way as sensitive adults.
Young Mr Davies was earnest, Welsh and cute.
|
|
|
Logged
|
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
|
|
|
oliver sudden
|
|
« Reply #44 on: 22:08:31, 19-08-2008 » |
|
Being a star boy treble has a dreadful terminus ad quem - the voice breaks. It could be worse.
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|