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Author Topic: Prom 40 - Janacek, BBCSO/Boulez  (Read 1383 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #30 on: 13:01:02, 16-08-2008 »

I may well have been in a seat with poor acoustics

That would have been one of the ones in the auditorium then.  Lips sealed
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richard barrett
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« Reply #31 on: 13:16:15, 16-08-2008 »

I don't know the Mass at all well and haven't yet really got to the point of making head nor tail of it, but I remember the Rattle recording being badly spoiled by indifferent solo singing and the Kubelik more involving in every way.
Richard, do try the Ančerl recording! It's every bit as compelling as his Mahler 9. The first choral entry in the Věruju is absolutely heart-stopping.
On its way.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #32 on: 13:19:21, 16-08-2008 »

I may well have been in a seat with poor acoustics

That would have been one of the ones in the auditorium then.  Lips sealed

Yet the sound at the one for the Mahler 3 was superb.
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #33 on: 13:23:06, 16-08-2008 »

It did seem that, with all his clarity, Boulez opted for the sleek and smooth at the expense of energy, fire and, yes, rough edges.

I'd agree with that assessment, autoharp, but then that didn't really come as a surprise. Boulez's Janáček was pretty much what I'd expected - precise, clear, but also lacking in those 'rough edges' I'd associate with Kubelík or Ančerl. The Sinfonietta seemed rather underpowered at the start, although some players tried to give it some 'edge', notably the clarinets, which I thought were superb.

I thought the Capriccio was delightful. I was fortunate in that the piano was angled in my favour and I think its quirkiness came across well. I don't know the Glagolitic Mass that well, and certainly not that particular edition, but I was impressed by the power of the choral reading, that mad organ solo and the quality of the tenor soloist. The soprano was not good, although she seemed remarkably pleased with herself as she walked off, winking and blowing kisses to members of the orchestra!

I found the pre-prom talk fascinating - Boulez speaks, as he conducts, with such clarity and his responses, especially about 'tradition' were thought-provoking. Interesting too that, although he said their busy schedules meant he didn't have the opportunity he'd have liked to talk to Charles Mackerras about Janáček, he had listened to his recordings. It was good to finally meet opilec after the talk, and also to catch up with George on his widdershin perambulations during the interval!

Like Richard, I feel compelled to hear the Ančerl recording of the Mass, as I really like his Sinfonietta performance.
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Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency
Ruth Elleson
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« Reply #34 on: 14:45:08, 16-08-2008 »

(Oh, and yes, the soprano ... I was at the side and was quite glad she wasn't pointing in my direction but it looked as if Ruth and Eruanto took the full brunt.)
Yes, we certainly did! At least you could only HEAR the wobble - we got to see it as well...

It made me grateful to have been sitting in the Stalls (roughly where IGI was sitting last night) for the World Requiem last year.

I quite enjoyed last night otherwise, though I did find myself glazing over and my mind wandering during the Capriccio. I agree that the tenor was excellent.

Lovely to see some of you at the bar afterwards, and to have made the acquaintance of strina who came to find me in the queue prior to her Belshazzar rehearsal.
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Oft hat ein Seufzer, deiner Harf' entflossen,
Ein süßer, heiliger Akkord von dir
Den Himmel beßrer Zeiten mir erschlossen,
Du holde Kunst, ich danke dir dafür!
Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #35 on: 18:41:40, 16-08-2008 »

For a very good review of releases of the Glagolitic Mass, both the original and revised versions, look here (including reference to a live recording of Boulez with the CSO).
« Last Edit: 18:59:28, 16-08-2008 by Il Grande Inquisitor » Logged

Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency
Bryn
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« Reply #36 on: 18:59:32, 16-08-2008 »

Sorry if I was too strident with my comments earlier but I was really looking forward to the Capriccio performance and that added to my disappointment.
 May I ask if any members who attend the concerts listen to the afternoon repeats, if so have they ever had cause to radically alter their opinion of a performance?

Sorry, Ted, I disagree. I don't think you were too strident at all. I found myself applauding the wind and brass players at the end of the Capriccio but resting my palms when the pianist stepped forward. I just don't think he was in sympathy with the work. And what an Earth was he doing resting his right hand on the piano , too? Could a one-handed pianist have distributed the skeletal and muscular effort in such a way? Mind you, I would rather have heard the Concertino anyway.

I agree with the general view re. the soprano and tenor. Thought the contralto's voice rather underpowered. Overall, though, I really enjoyed the performance of the Sinfonietta and the Glagolitic Mass. The polyrhythms worked fine for me, but they always have since first hearing the Wingfield version back in 1992. I do still somewhat prefer the organ solo in the Veruju without the interruptions though.
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Notoriously Bombastic
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« Reply #37 on: 10:05:05, 17-08-2008 »

Hello to all I met plus those I didn't/couldn't

I enjoyed Janacek, but not all of the performance. 

From the very start, the Sokol fanfare just wasn't wanton enough.  And it's fairly easy to pin down why - I've played both euph parts before and there are two problems with them:  Firstly tuning the parallel fifths (the opening Eb is notoriously sharp on a lot of instruments) and secondly knocking out all those top Bs.  The players seemed to compensate by playing well within themselves (so the three split Bs were appologetic rather than heroic!) and this gave the trumpets nothing to sit on, in particular the bass trumpets were very tame.  I know you could argue that the instruments should all be Czech, played with lots of vibrato and in a mellow manner, but the fanfare was written to be played outdoors.  On horseback.

The rest of the Sinfonietta was a bit of a let down too.  It was exciting to see Maurice Murphy's name in the programme, but it didn't seem to make the orchestral trumpets any more interesting.  The bass instruments dragged a lot in the ostinato passages.  The tuba doubled several 4th trombone passages that he shouldn't have.  I could barely hear the Eb clarinet, surely a first!

I'd never heard the Capriccio before, and rather enjoyed it.  The friend I was with commented beforehand that the trombones were very brave to be playing on slides (although I didn't hear any accidents).  Perhaps percieved balance problems would have been helped by using rotary valve trombones?

I've only heard the Glagotitic Mass a couple of times before and not really listened to it in any detail, so I won't have picked up any of the editorial issues.  It could have done with a bit more rawness though - the horns almost had the right idea.  I wasn't enamoured with the Soprano either.

Perhaps the key to playing Janacek is how to cope with the often unconventional orchestration.  You can try and make things balance up, or just get on with it and see what interesting sounds result.  I think Boulez was taking the first approach, and it feels like many members (myself included) would have prefered the second.

NB (who was listening to more than just the brass instruments, honestly)
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #38 on: 10:38:41, 17-08-2008 »

I caught up with the Sinfonietta on its BBC2 repeat last night, and can only agree with what everybody else has said. The body language and facial expressions of the prommers on camera behind the conductor during the periods the shots focussed on him were very telling - there was little evidence of engagement or excitement, more of dutiful attendance. Even at the often galvanising moment when the Sokol fanfares re-erupt over the last movement there seemed to be little change in their attitude. Good to see that the cymbal crash was on the beat before the brass entry, at least.

The mini feature between the Sinfonietta and the Baremboim Brahms 4 from the following night included clips of a few conductors (including Bernstein, Boult, Sargent, Barbirolli and Richard Strauss) and a short discussion between Boulez and Barenboim answering prepared questions on postcards filmed specially after a concert they gave together in Salzburg: by far the best insert I've seen in any televised Prom this year. The Brahms 4 was a very different kettle of fish, too - perhaps more rhapsodical than any performance I've heard before, but given with a conviction which seemed sadly lacking in the Sinfonietta.
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brassbandmaestro
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« Reply #39 on: 11:04:55, 17-08-2008 »

I havnmt had so much time lately for the proms this year. having to catch up on  iplayer Sad
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George Garnett
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« Reply #40 on: 11:24:48, 17-08-2008 »

The tuba doubled several 4th trombone passages that he shouldn't have.

Friends, Romans, Countrymen ...

One of the things I used to get despondent about, but have now decided just to accept as a fact of life, is the unbridgeable chasm between my listening abilities and that of the musicians here. I'm just dumbstruck with awe, Bombers (if I may), that you could tell that sort of thing from the Gallery. It is just a bit scary.
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Notoriously Bombastic
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Never smile at the brass


« Reply #41 on: 11:41:12, 17-08-2008 »

The tuba doubled several 4th trombone passages that he shouldn't have.

Friends, Romans, Countrymen ...

One of the things I used to get despondent about, but have now decided just to accept as a fact of life, is the unbridgeable chasm between my listening abilities and that of the musicians here. I'm just dumbstruck with awe, Bombers (if I may), that you could tell that sort of thing from the Gallery. It is just a bit scary.

Sorry George, not meant to be showing off or anything.  It was easy for me to spot because I've played the 'prinicpal bass trombone' part before and know that 4th and tuba don't play at the same time, plus standing in the Arena I could see what was going on.  It did sound different too!

NB
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George Garnett
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« Reply #42 on: 11:45:39, 17-08-2008 »

Oh, Arena, sorry, I misunderstood. I insist on remaining impressed though. Smiley
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Eruanto
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« Reply #43 on: 12:03:41, 17-08-2008 »

And what an Earth was he doing resting his right hand on the piano , too? Could a one-handed pianist have distributed the skeletal and muscular effort in such a way?

I hadn't thought of it like that, Bryn. It did look a bit lazy, but the only reason I can think of for doing it is to keep his balance; with the LH going right across your body into the upper reaches of the instrument it can feel a bit hairy without some support.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #44 on: 15:14:38, 17-08-2008 »

From the very start, the Sokol fanfare just wasn't wanton enough. 

Yes but yes but yes but who says it has to sound like the trumpets of the apocalypse? isn't the "brass showpiece" aspect of the Sinfonietta just an accretion of the performing tradition? I appreciated the delicacy of it. It's a shame there were a few fluffs though.

The tuba doubled several 4th trombone passages that he shouldn't have. 

I wonder why Boulez allowed that to happen. I have to admit I didn't notice that on the iPlayer (no surprises there) but the effect would have been noticeably different in the hall I dare say. George, I think if you heard it with and without the tuba you'd be able to tell the difference too. Using the tuba as the lowest part in a brass texture gives the whole thing a solidity and overall coherence which is lost (deliberately of course in this case) when the fourth trombone takes that role. See also Berlioz' Marche au supplice where those snarling low Bbs are given to a trombone so that they don't have the security and consistency of a tuba playing the same notes (being much more comfortable in that register).

You can try and make things balance up, or just get on with it and see what interesting sounds result.  I think Boulez was taking the first approach, and it feels like many members (myself included) would have prefered the second.

Although it may be that the composer would have preferred the first...? It could also be that the things that interest me about Janáček are similar to those which interest M Boulez.
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