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Author Topic: Prom 40 - Janacek, BBCSO/Boulez  (Read 1383 times)
Notoriously Bombastic
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Never smile at the brass


« Reply #45 on: 20:45:12, 17-08-2008 »

From the very start, the Sokol fanfare just wasn't wanton enough. 

Yes but yes but yes but who says it has to sound like the trumpets of the apocalypse? isn't the "brass showpiece" aspect of the Sinfonietta just an accretion of the performing tradition? I appreciated the delicacy of it. It's a shame there were a few fluffs though.

No but no but no but didn't it sound rather too delicate in the context of the work as a whole?  I wouldn't want the trumpets of the apocalypse, just a bit more exuberence.  For me, although the second movement is rhythmically busier than the fanfare I like the feeling of relaxing into it.  And when it returns in the fifth movement the fanfare needs to sail across the entire orchestra, so can't be underplayed that much first time around.

The tuba doubled several 4th trombone passages that he shouldn't have. 

I wonder why Boulez allowed that to happen. I have to admit I didn't notice that on the iPlayer (no surprises there) but the effect would have been noticeably different in the hall I dare say. George, I think if you heard it with and without the tuba you'd be able to tell the difference too. Using the tuba as the lowest part in a brass texture gives the whole thing a solidity and overall coherence which is lost (deliberately of course in this case) when the fourth trombone takes that role. See also Berlioz' Marche au supplice where those snarling low Bbs are given to a trombone so that they don't have the security and consistency of a tuba playing the same notes (being much more comfortable in that register).

No idea.  It was happening the other way round as well, but not in all passages.  I have wondered before if the 4th trombone/tuba issue is actually a publishing error and it's all meant to be played on one instrument (with janacek lazily writting just 'trombones' against the staff and the publisher taking it literally)

The Berlioz is a slightly different kettle of fish.  He had just discovered pedal notes (before some of his players!) and was showing off, using them for isolated effect rather than as a continous bass line.  The brass alternatives available to him in the Symphonie Fantastique were the (small bore) tenor trombones and the 2nd (Bb) opheclide.  Both would probably have sounded rather nasty.

You can try and make things balance up, or just get on with it and see what interesting sounds result.  I think Boulez was taking the first approach, and it feels like many members (myself included) would have prefered the second.

Although it may be that the composer would have preferred the first...? It could also be that the things that interest me about Janáček are similar to those which interest M Boulez.

And they are...?

NB
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richard barrett
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« Reply #46 on: 21:29:09, 17-08-2008 »

The Berlioz is a slightly different kettle of fish.  He had just discovered pedal notes (before some of his players!) and was showing off, using them for isolated effect rather than as a continous bass line.  The brass alternatives available to him in the Symphonie Fantastique were the (small bore) tenor trombones and the 2nd (Bb) opheclide.  Both would probably have sounded rather nasty.

He certainly goes for "nasty" in the Dies irae of the last movement though!

And they are...?
You had to ask, didn't you?  Cheesy Boulez is generally concerned to relate the music he performs to what has (or might) come after it, in preference to what came before, that is to say he's going to be less interested in the "Moravian" aspects (for example) and more in the innovative approach to form, harmony and orchestration. One of the thing that interests me about the composers whose music I feel attracted to is that this attraction probably reflects something they and I have in common, which for obvious reasons I want to delve into and understand as far as that's possible. Thus Boulez' approach to earlier twentieth century music is often something I find enlightening, I mean I always think after a Boulez performance that I've learnt something about the work that I didn't previously know, without meaning to imply that there's anything particularly didactic about the way he does things. I don't think it's the only or necessarily the "best" way, because of course there just is no only or best way.
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HtoHe
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« Reply #47 on: 17:24:10, 18-08-2008 »

Don't like to just jump on a negative but I'm glad it wasn't just me appalled by the soprano ( from New Orleans not France Reiner ) She also destroyed the performance last year of the Foulds Rememberance Day oratorio too I think ? ( that's a poor work anyway but I just wonder why professionals don't see what is almost the universal opinion. Two such occasions would suggest it wasn't simply an off night )

I don't particularly want to add to the negatives for Ms Charbonnet, but I feel compelled to point out that she was the Judith who greatly underwhelmed me when she partnered John Tomlinson's Bluebeard a few years ago.  I think she was a replacement then (or was JT a sub? or both of them?) and my opinion was clearly not shared by all as the Prom was released as a commercial CD.  She didn't impress me on Friday, either though her performance hardly ruined the concert for me. 

I agree with the praise for the bass (who, by coincidence, was an impressive Bluebeard under Boulez opposite Jessye Norman at Châtelet  - in a concert almost ruined for me by the relaying of the climactic organ part through huge speakers in the auditorium; one of them a mere few feet away from my innocent lugholes) - in fact I thought both male voices were strong and clear.

The Sinfonietta was interesting but I thought it a little lacking in grandeur - though I suppose one could praise it by mentioning the absence of grandiosity!  Both of my companions - neither of whom had heard any of the pieces before -were still bowled over by the Sinfonietta.  From what I remember hearing on the radio, though, I feel sure I'd rather have been at Charlie Mac's reading of the piece last year.  I'd like to hear the Capriccio a few more times before commenting - it was my first time for this piece; I'm pretty sure I've never even heard it on disc or radio before.

Anyway, it was well worth the trip and now I suppose I'd better buckle down to some work as I'm heading South again on Thursday for Osud.

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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #48 on: 16:19:52, 12-09-2008 »

Which television programme used the trumpet tune from the Sinfonietta as it's theme?

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Allegro, ma non tanto
Ron Dough
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« Reply #49 on: 16:22:14, 12-09-2008 »

Crown Court - still doing the daytime rounds, IRF.
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #50 on: 16:24:31, 12-09-2008 »

Really? I haven't watched that in years. It's amazing that the tune stayed with me all this time!


I'm watching the Prom on TV now (listened to it on R3 originally). Golly that's a lot of trumpets  Shocked


Why is the choir on stage all through the first half when they are only used in the second half?

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Allegro, ma non tanto
duncan
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« Reply #51 on: 20:55:36, 12-09-2008 »

Why is the choir on stage all through the first half when they are only used in the second half?

I have it on good authority that some of them actually enjoy listening to music as well as creating it  Wink
« Last Edit: 20:57:23, 12-09-2008 by duncan » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #52 on: 20:58:39, 12-09-2008 »

... or, conceivably, there isn't enough space backstage to accommodate them all comfortably. I've never been backstage at the RAH, maybe someone here has.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #53 on: 21:13:33, 12-09-2008 »

Choirs often - normally, even? - sit silently on stage for the half of a concert they're not involved in. If there was no choir at all in the concert, the choir seats would be made available to audience members, so presumably it's to avoid there ever being a big empty space visible (i.e. with neither choir nor audience).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
stuart macrae
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ascolta


« Reply #54 on: 21:17:12, 12-09-2008 »

I think there's a reasonable amount of space, and there are changing rooms for chorus as well as orchestra...but 'comfortably' - I don't know. Whenever I've been down there before a concert there have been quite a lot of orchestral musicians milling about in the corridor with instrument cases scattered around, so perhaps things are a bit restricted. Depends on the size of chorus I suppose.
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martle
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« Reply #55 on: 22:14:49, 12-09-2008 »

Ah, Stuart - you've been there too, a few weeks ago, I take it? Yes, I well remember the backstage space. There's a very large 'holding room', if you remember, for performers about to go on stage, with straw and water troughs. It's situated between the composers' bar and fitness room, and Madame Organe's gambling den, as I remember. But in my case this was a very, very long time ago, so things might have changed. But do they still have the ducks up the wall in the way up to the stage?
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stuart macrae
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ascolta


« Reply #56 on: 22:46:05, 12-09-2008 »

situated between the composers' bar and fitness room


Martle: Hi, Karlheinz. A little slow tonight, isn't it? (Martle emanates a belly laugh)
Karlheinz: Yes it is, Mr. Martle. What'll it be?
Martle: I'm awfully glad you asked me that, Karlheinz. Because I just happen to have two twenties and two tens right here in my wallet. I was afraid they were gonna be there until next April. So here's what. You slip me a bottle of bourbon, a little glass, and some ice. You can do that, can't you Karlheinz? You're not too busy, are ya?
Karlheinz: No sir, I'm not busy at all.
Martle: Good man. You set 'em up and I'll knock 'em back, Karlheinz, one by one. White man's burden, Karlheinz, white man's burden. (Martle opens his wallet and finds it empty) Say Karlheinz, it seems I'm temporarily light. How's my credit in this joint, anyway?
Karlheinz: Your credit's fine, Mr. Martle.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #57 on: 23:57:24, 12-09-2008 »

I like it, Stu. Cheesy Sort of Sirius meets The Shining (with a cameo for our very own John Wayne lookalike).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
martle
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« Reply #58 on: 08:54:54, 13-09-2008 »

 Cheesy

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Green. Always green.
richard barrett
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« Reply #59 on: 09:37:03, 13-09-2008 »

Later on...

Karlheinz: Young Ollie has a very great talent. I don't think you are aware how great it is, but he is attempting to use that very talent against your will.
Martle: Well, he is a very willful boy.
Karlheinz: Indeed, he is, Mr. Martle.  A very wilful boy.  A rather naughty boy, if I may be so bold, sir.
Martle: It's his mother... She, er... interferes.
Karlheinz: Perhaps they need a good talking to, if you don't mind my saying so. Perhaps a bit more. My girls, sir, they tried to outpost me at first.  One of them actually stole a packet of matches and tried to burn my computer down.  But I corrected them, sir.  And when my wife tried to prevent me from doing my duty I corrected her.

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