You are so right. He and his wife-to-be and her parents came at the weekend, as I've said I think. The parents were only here for a short time - we just had dinner together. It really wasn't bad at all, amd I wasn't particularly nervous about it, but son was.  He said to me just afterwards that he thought it had gone well, so I was happy really, except for one thing......and this is where I went wrong, at least according to him. They are having a string quartet and a pianist (fine), but he mentioned that he had thought of getting some friends of his who play the guitar and banjo to lead the guests in some sort of song, instead of a hymn, since it isn't a religious ceremony. My instant reaction was one of horror, and I'm afraid it showed a bit - not much, but I did react, and it wasn't "Yes, how nice, dear". I am very bad at lying. Nothing more was said at the time, but he lambasted me on the phone later. "This is about me and K, what you think has nothing to do with it" and so on. (I do remember saying to my own mother, rather often, "It's MY wedding and I'm doing what I like".) I am of course a musical snob according to him - he said the seven minutes of Chopin they are having will seem "quite heavy" to a lot of people ., and this would be the antidote. I think it could be seriously embarrassing - English people aren't exactly brilliant at joining in with singing, and what song could they possibly choose that everyone would know?

Right, I shouldn't have reacted, but I did, and he is behaving like an adolescent (possibly I am too). I think I am a bit jealous because K's parents live in Surrey, so they see them often. Also there are two of them and only one of me. Being on my own doesn't usually bother me at all, but is doing in this context - I feel quite isolated up here on my own. My other son is a lot more stable, but he isn't good at psychology, and also I feel it's not fair to burden him with my worries too much. I have good friends who understand, but I can't keep on at them all the time.

I can't imagine what all this would be like if I didn't like the girl he's marrying, which of course is often the case. I'm increasingly glad that my own wedding consisted of nipping to the Registry Office on a Thursday aftenoon with immediate family, a meal in the evening, and that's all. Of course, he's well aware that I don't like big fussy weddings, and that's not helping.

At my second wedding. recently  ::)it was so easy in that respect. As both of us are of 'mature' age  we were able to use whatever music WE wanted, so Bach at the ceremony, Bach/ Purcell/Elgar/Suk...and did I say Bach ? was the order of the day at the reception.

They didn't dare say it was heavy ... it was what was expected !!! ( the 'mature' amongst the few guests enjoyed it too)

Oh the joys of being older !!

A

I've never been a mother but I have been a son ... And although I don't of course know your son at all, Mary, my guess would be that he is now anguishing over the whole thing and feeling awful about what he said in the phone call. It wasn't as if you had said he couldn't have his song! Just giving an honest reaction to the idea (and innocently providing a very modest peg indeed for hanging a perhaps pre-determined 'difficult to please parent' label on?). But unsettling, I do appreciate. It would worry away at me too if I was in your position so I am the last one qualified to offer advice really, but I would try and hang on to the "I think that went quite well" comment. After all, if that was the only complaint he could come up with ...

I do feel for you, Mary.  That whole guitar/singing this sounds awful.  My guess is people will find it embarrassing - as most forms of audience participation tend to be. 

Give me a registry office wedding any day of the week: more emphasis on the ceremony itself and fewer opportunities for pretentious tomfoolery from those attending/organising.

I agree!

Regarding the song, Mary, I probably wouldn't jump for joy at the mention of such an idea instead, but at my best friend's civil partnership ceremony two years ago (in a registry office) his mother sang along to a CD accompaniment of a jazz song. I can hardly imagine anything more guaranteed to be embarrassing/awkward, but it wasn't, really. Everyone was very moved by the occasion and people aren't generally predisposed not to enjoy themselves at weddings. I would assume that your son's guests will cope with the banjos and guitars just as well as they'll cope with the Chopin. Surely the real reason people try so hard and argue so much about getting things right at weddings is to feel that everyone (the bride, groom, parents) is getting some of what they want; I don't think there's actually a serious risk of things seeming not right on the day, whatever final choices are made. You don't often hear people saying 'I wish I hadn't had that song at my wedding', do you?

Is there any chance of you securing an invitation to have dinner with your son's fiancée's parents? I know my parents have had dinner with my sister's future parents-in-law a couple of times, once with my sister and her boyfriend present and once without. It might be an intimidating prospect for you, but I think it could help you to feel that you stand on an equal footing with them. I'm sure they have their own ideas and reservations about aspects of the service, but it's your feeling that your opinion somehow counts for less or that everyone else in on the same side and you're outnumbered that seems to be worrying you.

No, I'm sure they wouldn't, Mort, but J and K (son and fiancee) would know if it was awful. I promise I wouldn't say "I told you so".

There is a big difference between the generations, at least in our family, as far as music is concerned. The young are much more likely to be tolerant. Where I see the mix of Chopin and something on a guitar as quite horrendous, they would probably just see it as interesting variety. I suppose I should be grateful for the "classical" bits. Plenty of people wouldn't get those.

Tinners, we did have dinner with the parents, though I haven't been with them alone, and we are over 200 miles apart. They are quite nice really, the father particularly. He went to school with Richard Hickox, so we were able to gossip about him. I've sung in quite a few concerts with him in my time. Apparently at school he was known as "Sid", his middle name . But yes, I do feel outnumbered. However, K is getting fed up with her mother as well. Maybe it's just what usually happens

Do you think that violent books and pieces of artwork should be similarly banned?  What about eating meat?  Surely that has a lot more to do with 'real' violence than any fiction...   And violent music?  (Beethoven, for instance, and Eminem).

I don't think it necessarily is.  I don't dispute that some (a tiny few) people have been v. terribly influenced by certain games.  But, I'm guessing that these people weren't exactly all their to begin with.  Also, very importantly, the violence of these games is not at all obviously the main aesthetic element of their appeal (not to me).

I liked GTA 1, but haven't had much time for the later ones really.  People tell me that GTA4 has a very different (dare I say 'more realistic') visual style which I might find more appealing, but I'm not holding my breath.

Mightn't that very fact throw into question the notion that these games debase and so on?

To pick up something I'm sure I said in earlier discussions on this thread, there is often an assumption that what people desire in fantasy, or for escapism, mirrors the rest of their attitudes to life, people, etc. I by no means accept a necessary link in this respect; on the contrary, it may sometimes be the reverse (fantasy as a respository for that which one wishes to keep separate from the rest of life).