Turfan Fragment
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« Reply #90 on: 15:26:14, 21-08-2008 » |
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As an infrequent attnder of Meetings (and as a technical Quaker but not a practising one), I can confirm that they don't. Use 'thee' and 'thou', I mean. But Strina's right about old-school American Quakers - I've heard that - and it applies to other sects too, such as the Shakers.
And I've never met a 'technical Quaker' I didn't like!
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #91 on: 11:34:41, 22-08-2008 » |
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I think people with strictly structured languages like English or German have different (structured) way of thinking.
One always has a Noun, Verb and then everything else after. One can not assume anything.
On the other hand in other languages some things are understood.
For example, if I say: English language is complicated - it sounds fine to me.
On the other hand from some other language speaker it could be redundant. I for example can be perfectly without it and would not notice it is not there. After all everybody knows it should be there.
English language - very complidated. Or Enllish language it is very complicated. Both would sound good to me.
People's brains wired differently. (This doesn't sound as a good phrase to me).
However, our language effects our thinking. May be it is not this way now, but I noticed that Russian music articles are very wordy. If they want to talk about XX century composer they will start from at least Bach or Beethoven. I will have to find out if this situation has changed.
I think English is very precise language. Of course I only sort of know two and both badly.
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« Last Edit: 11:59:30, 22-08-2008 by trained-pianist »
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #92 on: 11:56:49, 22-08-2008 » |
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Never having got beyond the level of a four year old obsessed by gastronomy and liturgy in any language other than English, I am not in a very good position to say.
I get the impression English appears far more grammatically simple than other European languages (no genders, no cases, hardly any verb ending variations). When I am faced by all this variations in endings, I panic. (I find Italian and French OK, and I can order a meal, but German makes me panic, and I dare not put a sentence together as I am bound to get an agreement wrong.)
The present tense in English may not have many variations in ending, but when do you say "I write", when "I am writing" or "I do write"? I know the difference by instinct. Heaven help anyone trying to learn any rules.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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richard barrett
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« Reply #93 on: 12:04:11, 22-08-2008 » |
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The present tense in English may not have many variations in ending, but when do you say "I write", when "I am writing" or "I do write"? I know the difference by instinct. Heaven help anyone trying to learn any rules.
There are of course rules, but we never learn them explicitly. This means that (a) Englissh speakers often have the panic you describe when dealing with more systematically-organised languages and (b) the general decline in English grammar which we're often bemoaning here doesn't really happen in for example German, where you need to know the rules to get anywhere at all. Having said that, I think it's the irregularities of spelling and pronunciation which most fox people learning English as a second language.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #94 on: 12:11:54, 22-08-2008 » |
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Yes, cases are very complicated. I don't know how anyone can learn say Russian. I think it is a little easier than Chinese, though I would not know for sure. However, I met a few people from England and Scotland who spoke my language perfectly and with very slight accent.
I remember one specialized in Chekov.
I think it is the matter of not taking on every aspect of the language, but concentrate on a small part for a while. Also if you don't live in the country of the language it will be very "dry". I am trying to say that there will be boring rules and exercises and then you will go home to speak English.
For me learning German was very difficult because of this "dry" boring matter.
However, now it doesn't seem to be so scary because I can come from English. English and German have a lot in common. I can understand now that languages become easier to learn if you sort of know two or more already.
I do agree that may be grammatically English is more or less simple. It is probably not as difficult to learn if you know German.
Also to speak a language and to be able to write intelligently are two different things.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #95 on: 12:15:49, 22-08-2008 » |
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Also to speak a language and to be able to write intelligently are two different things.
You don't say.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #96 on: 12:16:35, 22-08-2008 » |
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I think it's the irregularities of spelling and pronunciation which most fox people learning English as a second language.
I keep wanting to add a finite verb ("bark at"?!) to the end of that sentence. 
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #97 on: 12:18:58, 22-08-2008 » |
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a four year old obsessed by gastronomy and liturgy Now that would indeed be a strange kind of person, wouldn't it. 
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #98 on: 12:25:11, 22-08-2008 » |
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What kind of you You you are using to speak to each other on this forum?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #99 on: 12:28:02, 22-08-2008 » |
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Second-person singular ("you"):
[none] (very formal) anata (formal) kimi (informal, male speaker) omae (very informal, male speaker) anta (very informal)
Second-person plural ("you"):
[none] (very formal) anatagata (formal) kimitachi (informal, male speaker) kimira (informal, male speaker) anatatachi (informal) omaetachi (very informal, male speaker) omaera (very informal, male speaker) antatachi (very informal) antara (very informal)
All of the above.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #100 on: 12:47:46, 22-08-2008 » |
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Meanwhile, the onward march of monolingual Britain continues, as seen through the eyes of this French commentator: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/22/britishidentity.languagesSince Tony Blair's decision in 2004 to make foreign languages optional for 14- to 16-year-olds (while claiming foreign languages to be a priority), almost 100,000 teenagers have dropped French; now the lucky few to study the language of the enlightenment number only 201,940. I could also talk of Thomas Mann's vernacular, now studied by only 76,695 British teenagers. And as for the words of Cervantes, these may be luring more pupils each year, but they are still a relative handful, at 66,978.
I know what many will say: what's the use of learning another language when English has become a lingua franca? The knowledge of other languages, dear monolingual friends, is quite simply essential: life-enhancing, mind-blowing, even life-saving. It will make you richer; get you the girls or the lads of your dreams; spare you huge embarrassments; help you get out of tricky situations; and, most importantly of all, help you avoid being a laughing stock.
O tempora, O mores
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #101 on: 14:53:26, 22-08-2008 » |
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Now I will try to assume that we are informal you now. I may have relapses.
Mr Baz, I tried to change the paragraph you refered to, but found it too difficult.I don't think I can translate it into proper English.
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« Last Edit: 15:00:51, 22-08-2008 by trained-pianist »
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time_is_now
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« Reply #102 on: 15:09:17, 22-08-2008 » |
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On a related but slightly unusual note, I suddenly started thinking about something else. Something I've experimented with sometimes is writing in the second person, especially in a 'genre' (or a 'register' ...) where this is not expected, e.g. CD liner notes or concert reviews. I find it produces an interesting effect.
Actually you can't write 'in the second [or any other] person', of course, since a given piece of writing will use first, second and third persons depending on the relation and positioning of speakers, listeners and subjects at any given moment. So the fact of 'being written in the second person' is part of the illusion, and arises only in a context of style or subject-matter where the 'you' is generally excluded. And this means that you only need to use the word quite infrequently for it to seem as if you're using it a lot: just 'stepping outside' the material two or three times to address the reader directly draws attention to the fact that the reader is normally a completely silent, invisible presence in such writing contexts.
I wonder what 'you' would be translated in such contexts. I'm addressing an imaginary reader whom I don't know, but the particular tone I adopt when I use this technique (well - I've done it twice that I can remember for published work) is usually a rather intimate one, as if I were reading to someone by the fireside.
A similarly interesting trick is to 'transpose' a whole piece of writing into the future tense (so that pasts become future perfects, etc. etc.). This is quite an interesting way to write a novel.
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« Last Edit: 15:17:31, 22-08-2008 by time_is_now »
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #103 on: 15:16:34, 22-08-2008 » |
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Any comments on Bleak House, half of which is written in the present tense?
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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