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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #600 on: 00:40:58, 09-12-2007 » |
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Are any of us capable of objectivity at the best of times? I'd much rather see subjective responses than the 'objectivity' which, it has already been noted, has been brought to bear on KS by the British press in the last couple of days. (And incidentally I hope that some of my more flippant comments haven't annoyed/offended anyone) Stockhausen was indeed apt to claim he'd invented many things which he hadn't, but we oughtn't to let foibles like that get in the way of appreciating his music, surely; after all, Feldman, since he's been mentioned, talked self-contradictory, meaningless, mean-spirited and/or ignorant stuff a lot of the time. (And we may note that his music has been greatly more appreciated, recorded and influential since he died.) Quoting David Hockney as I am wont to do at moments like this: "never believe what an artist says, only what he does."
Noted. Good point, well made. I think I was trying to compare the way that Feldman seemed to portray himself (as a craftsman) against the way the Stockhausen seemed to portray himself (as a ground-breaker and revolutionary), and that this creates its own kind of debris which has to be sifted post-mortem. In Feldman's case, it feels like he had created a less problematic mythology around himself so that commentators could discover the pearls amongst the excrement in his writings, but I think that there are going to be more critical attacks, especially on his recent music, following his death simply because of his place within the musical world (past and present) before the focus will return to the notes and technical ideas that he actually wrote. |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #601 on: 00:50:20, 09-12-2007 » |
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I think that Feldman's influence is here to stay personally, not just from his music but from his writings (to which I return again and again).
I agree hh, it certainly is for me. I wouldn't like to compare the two of them though, chalk and cheese? It was a comparison that Feldman himself made frequently - not in an analytical sense but in a conceptual and social sense. Given their respective biographies, the fundamental difference between their approaches is not terribly surprising (Feldman doesn't seem to have a technique(?) but Stockhausen generates a new technique for each piece) but I suspect that there are certain areas of common ground (though don't expect me to outline them at 12:45 on a Saturday night!) (Incidentally, Feldman's rather glib put-downs of KS's approach to material is more useful IMO to viewing MF's work than to viewing KS's work) I think that the other five movements of Klang have been premiered so far (Himmelfahrt for organ, Freude for two harps, Natürliche Dauern for piano, Himmels-Tür for percussionist and a little girl, and Cosmic Pulses for electronics) but I could be wrong.
And I am. Just seen on a different worklist that hours 6-12 of Klang were apparently composed in 2006 but I'm wondering if that was a list drawn up in 2006 of the works on which KS was working at the time. |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #602 on: 01:20:37, 09-12-2007 » |
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hours 6-12 of Klang were apparently composed in 2006 but I'm wondering if that was a list drawn up in 2006 of the works on which KS was working at the time.
Only one of them is assigned a duration, and indeed an "approximate" one, but it's also possible that the "ca.30' " applies to the entire sequence, which consists entirely of instrumental trios with related ("virtuous") titles and looks therefore like some kind of linked series. They're marked "not yet premiered" rather than "not yet completed". I suppose we'll find out in due course. |
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #603 on: 03:22:29, 09-12-2007 » |
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. . . our indefatigably wrong-headed correspondent. Well you yourself are pretty peculiar - what about all those "Veronica" stunts - and that's just for starters . . . |
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autoharp
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« Reply #604 on: 03:28:28, 09-12-2007 » |
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I heard Irvine Arditti talking about how they asked him to write a string quartet for them and he said he didn't write string quartets . . . That really says it all does it not. The string quartet is so pure and absolute! All the great composers (not to mention the many who were not great) have written them, with the exception of course of Scryabine, who died young. We do still look forward to hearing Member Grew's own quartets. One wonders if he ever attempted to deputise for his Russian hero? |
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pim_derks
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« Reply #605 on: 08:50:45, 09-12-2007 » |
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The string quartet is so pure and absolute! All the great composers (not to mention the many who were not great) have written them, with the exception of course of Scryabine, who died young. We do still look forward to hearing Member Grew's own quartets. One wonders if he ever attempted to deputise for his Russian hero? Reading the name of Alexander Scriabin in a discussion about Karlheinz Stockhausen made me think. Both Scriabin and Stockhausen wanted to create a large multi-media work based on mystical themes. Scriabin never completed his "Mysterium", Stockhausen finished his "LICHT" cycle in 2005. I can't say that the completion of "LICHT" was generally seen as a major landmark in modern music. I now wonder if this has something to do with the place of classical music in today's society. Perhaps "LICHT" would have made a bigger impression on critics and audiences if it had been completed thirty years ago. Suppose Scriabin did complete "Mysterium" and the score would be discovered somewhere: would this be great news for audiences and critics? Personally I think that many people would love to hear a complete and original Mahler 10 or Shostakovich 16, but I don't think they would care that much for a complete "Mysterium". I don't know if this tells us more about audiences than it tells us about Scriabin. |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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richard barrett
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« Reply #606 on: 11:10:58, 09-12-2007 » |
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. . . our indefatigably wrong-headed correspondent. Well you yourself are pretty peculiar - what about all those "Veronica" stunts - and that's just for starters . . . ADDRESS THE WHAT NOT THE WHOM |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #607 on: 11:22:48, 09-12-2007 » |
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Perhaps "LICHT" would have made a bigger impression on critics and audiences if it had been completed thirty years ago. In so far as such speculations mean anything, I think you're right. What shines out from almost all Stockhausen's work, from beginning to end, is a sense of optimism, that there's a place in the world for music which proposes that each listener take the time and commitment to develop an "art of listening". Such optimism is somewhat thin on the ground these days. Today a CD of Sting singing Dowland is a "major landmark in modern music". Some might think that's no better or worse than Stockhausen's eccentric vision. |
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #608 on: 11:45:37, 09-12-2007 » |
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. . . our indefatigably wrong-headed correspondent. Well you yourself are pretty peculiar - what about all those "Veronica" stunts - and that's just for starters . . . do you think they differ greatly from The Girl With Horns, Granny Smith & Co? |
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #609 on: 12:01:46, 09-12-2007 » |
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OK. Big Ron's going to step in here right now: if we give in to the temptation to lurch so dramatically off-topic, that will be yet another valuable thread derailed. Particularly when this has become an obituary column, it's just not the place for personal mud-slinging. Please keep to the subject, as richard has already: ADDRESS THE WHAT NOT THE WHOM is a mantra we might all do well to rehearse.
Thank you.
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pim_derks
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« Reply #610 on: 13:22:48, 09-12-2007 » |
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What shines out from almost all Stockhausen's work, from beginning to end, is a sense of optimism, that there's a place in the world for music which proposes that each listener take the time and commitment to develop an "art of listening". Interesting point. One could say that Stockhausen's work is optimistic. I noticed the same optimism in Elliott Carter's remarks on listening to music. Perhaps creating something new is always an optimistic thing to do. |
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"People hate anything well made. It gives them a guilty conscience." John Betjeman
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #611 on: 14:14:13, 09-12-2007 » |
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Concerning Carré: I'm currently listening to a cassette of the piece that I've found of a R3 broadcast, probably about 10 years ago. Was anyone here at that performance? It's BBC SO, BBC Singers, Robertson, Rophé et al. How does this performance measure up to the earlier recording? Is it complete?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #612 on: 14:31:09, 09-12-2007 » |
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I didn't know that had taken place, Stuart. The full duration would be between 35 and 40 minutes I'd imagine.
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stuart macrae
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« Reply #613 on: 14:50:26, 09-12-2007 » |
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I've just copied it onto my hard drive: it was a performance in Paris, 1995, and the duration is just over 39 minutes, so I guess it's complete?
I don't know how good a performance it is (never having seen the score of Carré) but it's nice to have it. There are some moments of terrific excitement in it, and the inclusion of singers gives it a certain richness of sound in places, but all in all it seems a much more other-worldly piece than Gruppen - more like a slow procession of ideas, and somewhat less integrated, I feel (although this could be the performance, of course)
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #614 on: 15:17:26, 09-12-2007 » |
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Perhaps "LICHT" would have made a bigger impression on critics and audiences if it had been completed thirty years ago. But (and please forgive me for playing devil's avocado here) it would have also been a very different piece thirty years ago. Would the impression have been due to the position of contemporary music in society, to Stockhausen's place within society, to Stockhausen's place within, or to the consistency of the quality of the music? In so far as such speculations mean anything, I think you're right. Yup. What shines out from almost all Stockhausen's work, from beginning to end, is a sense of optimism, that there's a place in the world for music which proposes that each listener take the time and commitment to develop an "art of listening". Such optimism is somewhat thin on the ground these days.
Oh yes. I like that. There are some moments of terrific excitement in it, and the inclusion of singers gives it a certain richness of sound in places, but all in all it seems a much more other-worldly piece than Gruppen - more like a slow procession of ideas, and somewhat less integrated, I feel (although this could be the performance, of course)
It's one of those pieces connected with his dreams of flying isn't it (or is that a link made after the event?) I had a feeling it has something to do with the sound of airplane motors. |
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'is this all we can do?' anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965) http://www.myspace.com/itensemble |
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