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Author Topic: Karlheinz Stockhausen  (Read 20523 times)
richard barrett
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« Reply #585 on: 23:42:03, 08-12-2007 »

True, Bryn. (But it isn't really by Stockhausen!) I'd like to hear a complete performance of that some time - the only recording of it is (a) a bit of a mess, given that it was so far outside any of the performers' experience at the time when it was made (before the premiere IIRC), and (b) cut to about 2/3 of its full duration.

I don't have a score of Carré but I do remember, I hope correctly, that each of the four orchestras contains 16 string instruments as well as winds and percussion.
« Last Edit: 23:50:34, 08-12-2007 by richard barrett » Logged
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #586 on: 23:42:40, 08-12-2007 »

I heard Irvine Arditti talking about how they asked him to write a string quartet for them and he said he didn't write string quartets . . .

That really says it all does it not. The string quartet is so pure and absolute! All the great composers (not to mention the many who were not great) have written them, with the exception of course of Scryabine, who died young.
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Bryn
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« Reply #587 on: 23:50:27, 08-12-2007 »

True, Bryn. (But it isn't really by Stockhausen!) I'd like to hear a complete performance of that some time - the only recording of it is (a) a bit of a mess, given that it was so far outside any of the performers' experience at the time when it was made (before the premiere IIRC), and (b) cut to about 2/3 of its full duration.

I don't have a score of Carré but I do remember, I hope correctly, that each of the four orchestras contains 16 string instruments.

Ahem. Take a look at this. Notice someone conspicuous by their absence in the stuff about Carré?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #588 on: 23:52:29, 08-12-2007 »

Take a look at this. Notice someone conspicuous by their absence in the stuff about Carré?

Oh yes - that's such an authoritative piece of writing, I must have been mistaken.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #589 on: 23:57:51, 08-12-2007 »

Thanks to you and hh for Sternklang - now that really was an event. I enjoyed it immensely and there were lots of people there who obviously weren't contemporary music enthusiasts but who could appreciate the whole experience. It occurred on midsummer's day starting at 9pm - and the weather was very good which helped of course as people could just lie around on the grass if they felt like it.

If I ever get around to it, I've always fancied putting it on. Maybe I could stage some kind of performance during the Fringe up here in Holyrood park... [gazes dreamily into the distance]

Has anyone heard the 5th hour of Klang: Harmonien for bass clarinet/flute?

I heard Irvine Arditti talking about how they asked him to write a string quartet for them and he said he didn't write string quartets . . .

That really says it all does it not. The string quartet is so pure and absolute! All the great composers (not to mention the many who were not great) have written them, with the exception of course of Scryabine, who died young.


I think that it does say a lot.
For Stockhausen, Classical forms, genres and instrumentations have so much baggage attached to them that he found them extremely problematic. Consider how he splits up the orchestra in Gruppen and how he subverts the standard wind quintet in Zeitmasse. I believe that this isn't just a matter of being original in each new work (though that's a symptom) but it's a matter of beginning again after WW2. The music of the Classical period, and the continuation of the same into the 19th century was considered compromised to some extent (though he seems to have been quite happy later on to reintegrate Mozart, Mozart and Haydn in his cadenzas).

Interestingly, like all good composers (I really don't like 'great' because I don't understand what it means and furthermore I don't want to understand what it means: every single attempt to establish any kind of pantheon brings me up in a rash), Stockhausen was asked to write this string quartet, turned it down, and then started (almost against his will) hearing and dreaming it. I see the helicopter deployment as being a way of radically problematising the relationship of the four players in a way that makes the medium viable to Stockhausen (of course it could be played in the concert hall with recorded rotor blades mixed in (and the sounding result would probably have pleased KS more - see those comments he made after the premiere about the change in course!) but there's something delightful about the way it works.

True, Bryn. (But it isn't really by Stockhausen!) I'd like to hear a complete performance of that some time - the only recording of it is (a) a bit of a mess, given that it was so far outside any of the performers' experience at the time when it was made (before the premiere IIRC), and (b) cut to about 2/3 of its full duration.

I don't have a score of Carré but I do remember, I hope correctly, that each of the four orchestras contains 16 string instruments as well as winds and percussion.

Why is that piece not available in any other recording? Is it difficult to put on or was KS ambivalent towards it? Seeing how he was revisiting earlier works, I would have thought he might have organised a second go at it if the first recording is as shoddy as you say. Ho hum. Let's hope for the future that someone takes it up.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #590 on: 23:59:35, 08-12-2007 »

Who wrote all that stuff? Does it say - I can't see anything?

Actually, the mention of Feldman is kinda interesting. He certainly is more prominent, in terms of recordings (and performances also?) nowadays. Do people think this will remain the case, or is it just a passing fashion?

And will Stockhausen's death assist his music's re-entry into the public sphere (in whatever way you choose to interpret that question)?
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richard barrett
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« Reply #591 on: 00:07:05, 09-12-2007 »

Has anyone heard the 5th hour of Klang: Harmonien for bass clarinet/flute?

I haven't. (Is it named after you?) I noticed at stockhausen.org that some new pieces were scheduled for premieres next year. I wonder if they were indeed completed. (I suspect they were.)

All the great composers (not to mention the many who were not great) have written them, with the exception of course of Scryabine, who died young.

The names Berlioz, Wagner, Mahler and Messiaen obviously mean nothing to our indefatigably wrong-headed correspondent.

Why is that piece not available in any other recording? Is it difficult to put on or was KS ambivalent towards it? Seeing how he was revisiting earlier works, I would have thought he might have organised a second go at it if the first recording is as shoddy as you say. Ho hum. Let's hope for the future that someone takes it up.

Yes indeed. It does involve pretty massive forces, including of course four conductors, and can't be performed in most concert halls. If he'd been given the opportunity, that is to say an upcoming performance, he might well have returned to work on it, but that would have been a huge undertaking, and I believe his schedule was always pretty full.
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harmonyharmony
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« Reply #592 on: 00:10:01, 09-12-2007 »

Take a look at this. Notice someone conspicuous by their absence in the stuff about Carré?

Oh yes - that's such an authoritative piece of writing, I must have been mistaken.

It's also reminded me of the occasion before a performance of Gruppen in the RFH, when KS introduced it saying that it was the first time that an orchestra had been organised in multiple tempi. I was tempted to heckle at that point. Isn't there anecdotal evidence that he had open on his desk a score by an American composer whose name I forget (help!) who had done just that while he was writing it?

Who wrote all that stuff? Does it say - I can't see anything?

Actually, the mention of Feldman is kinda interesting. He certainly is more prominent, in terms of recordings (and performances also?) nowadays. Do people think this will remain the case, or is it just a passing fashion?

And will Stockhausen's death assist his music's re-entry into the public sphere (in whatever way you choose to interpret that question)?

It's by Loco Nordin I think.
He's put some stuff up about Aus den sieben Tagen which I found interesting if not overwhelmingly useful.

I think that Feldman's influence is here to stay personally, not just from his music but from his writings (to which I return again and again).
Stockhausen is a victim of his own earlier success. If you're going to insist at every juncture that you are the newest, most radicalest, most innovatoryest composer alive and then start writing Licht (whilst still claiming that you are the newest, most usw.), people are going to start saying 'huh?'. Also it doesn't help that a level of critical quality control seems to have malfunctioned in certain parts of the whole project, but I think that Stockhausen's kudos level has been fundamentally weakened by his self-acclaimed 'Maestro' status.
If his death prompts a great deal of performance and (sensible) discussion, then I can see that this might alone rehabilitate a lot of his earlier stuff, but there will be an awful lot of people who will see this as the close of a chapter, and the beginning of a new era of 'pure and absolute' music.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
Bryn
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« Reply #593 on: 00:12:41, 09-12-2007 »

Who wrote all that stuff? Does it say - I can't see anything?




Ingvar Loco Nordin

There's a couple of links on the bottom of the page I linked to earlier.
« Last Edit: 00:14:40, 09-12-2007 by Bryn » Logged
Ron Dough
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« Reply #594 on: 00:13:32, 09-12-2007 »


All the great composers (not to mention the many who were not great) have written them, with the exception of course of Scryabine, who died young.

The names Berlioz, Wagner, Mahler and Messiaen obviously mean nothing to our indefatigably wrong-headed correspondent.


http://r3ok.myforum365.com/index.php?topic=1633.msg77328#msg77328
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time_is_now
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« Reply #595 on: 00:19:58, 09-12-2007 »

I noticed at stockhausen.org that some new pieces were scheduled for premieres next year. I wonder if they were indeed completed. (I suspect they were.)
Yes, I noticed that too and was wondering the same thing.

I also see that Cosmic Pulses is now available (on CD91), which I don't think it was last time I looked there. Do you know enough about that piece to have an idea of how well it's likely to work on CD?

I was over at the Verlag site just now looking for these mp3s you mentioned for the various Klang pieces - you couldn't give me a pointer, could you?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #596 on: 00:22:31, 09-12-2007 »

Has anyone heard the 5th hour of Klang: Harmonien for bass clarinet/flute?
I haven't. (Is it named after you?) I noticed at stockhausen.org that some new pieces were scheduled for premieres next year. I wonder if they were indeed completed. (I suspect they were.)
Not that I know of  Wink
The premiere seems planned for 11th July next year.
Somewhat poignant that on the front page of the website it says that 'Stockhausen expects his 80th birthday in 2008'.
I think that the other five movements of Klang have been premiered so far (Himmelfahrt for organ, Freude for two harps, Natürliche Dauern for piano, Himmels-Tür for percussionist and a little girl, and Cosmic Pulses for electronics) but I could be wrong.
Will either Suzanne Stephens or Kathinka Pasveer attempt to do an Yvonne Loriod on sketches that survive? Or will they enlist a handy Süssmayer to finish the job (which would, at least, be in keeping with some of his past practice...)?
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
harmonyharmony
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« Reply #597 on: 00:25:09, 09-12-2007 »

I was over at the Verlag site just now looking for these mp3s you mentioned for the various Klang pieces - you couldn't give me a pointer, could you?
They're under Multimedia from the menu at the top of the homepage.
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'is this all we can do?'
anonymous student of the University of Berkeley, California quoted in H. Draper, 'The new student revolt' (New York: Grove Press, 1965)
http://www.myspace.com/itensemble
richard barrett
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« Reply #598 on: 00:28:32, 09-12-2007 »

Stockhausen was indeed apt to claim he'd invented many things which he hadn't, but we oughtn't to let foibles like that get in the way of appreciating his music, surely; after all, Feldman, since he's been mentioned, talked self-contradictory, meaningless, mean-spirited and/or ignorant stuff a lot of the time. (And we may note that his music has been greatly more appreciated, recorded and influential since he died.) Quoting David Hockney as I am wont to do at moments like this: "never believe what an artist says, only what he does."

Completing incomplete works from sketches might be a little less difficult in Stockhausen's case than with some other composers, I think.

Stockhausen's death is the close of a chapter as far as I personally am concerned: the three composers whose example was most important to me (the others being Xenakis and Nono) are now all dead. In a real sense I grew up with Stockhausen's music. I feel something of the emptiness of a bereavement since yesterday, although I didn't have that much actual contact with him. In other words, don't expect anything particularly objective from me.
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Andy D
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« Reply #599 on: 00:36:33, 09-12-2007 »

I think that Feldman's influence is here to stay personally, not just from his music but from his writings (to which I return again and again).

I agree hh, it certainly is for me. I wouldn't like to compare the two of them though, chalk and cheese?
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