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Author Topic: A Vaughan Williams symphony cycle  (Read 1653 times)
Ron Dough
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« Reply #30 on: 00:01:01, 27-08-2008 »

I have that CD: there's another conductor for the Tuba Concerto, which is well-enough done, but the symphony's no contender. The strings are low in number and (perhaps in an attempt to ameliorate this) the whole thing is recorded closely and clinically. The opening of the first movement is thus rendered hopelessly prosaic, with no sense of misty distance, whilst the final ladder-like ascension of string chords is shorn of lustre or glory. A curiosity, and that's it, really.

I've not yet succumbed to temptation for the Melbourne London or that American Previn 5th, nor the Russian Sea Symphony or the two later Stokey recordings. There's very little more RVW that seems essential at the moment, but then he's already one of my most completely represented composers....
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Robert Dahm
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« Reply #31 on: 03:42:34, 27-08-2008 »

Thank you for the recommendations, people. I think I'll pick up the Previn set, which is diabolically cheap from the Amazon (but, of course, over triple the price if bought from one's local purveyor of Compact Discs). The set I had listened to previously was the Haitink - it must have been just after its release in 2004. I have just now discovered it rather inexplicably on my iPod. I'm three movements into the 6th Symphony at the moment, and at first listen I'm inclined to agree with Ron about Haitink - it's rather bland. You can sort of hear that there's more there to be explored, but he just doesn't. I frequently have this problem with Haitink, though, so maybe I'm just projecting past experiences...
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #32 on: 09:13:09, 27-08-2008 »

One of the comments I've made previously about Haitink concerns his tendency to relate everything to a central European tradition: both his Shostakovich and Vaughan Williams are thus rather shorn of their national idiom, which in each case its a vital component. There is much that he does which is wonderful, but when he fails, he fails massively (the first movement of his Walton 1 is another obvious case: after a great start he effects a downward gear-change which hobbles the music's impetus completely). On the plus side, his cycle is well recorded, and his orchestral sound has plenty of weight, though not much transparency.

Previn has not only the afore-mentioned advantage of similarly excellent sound - slightly lighter in balance, but far more transparent: the Pastoral, already wonderful as a performance, is made even more amazing by the captured numinous quality of the orchestral colour - but of an orchestra at its peak: his LSO in the late sixties and early seventies was an assembly of musicians who were superb both individually and collectively. Time and again the music is able to take off and make itself rather than remaining just a dry, faithful representation of what's on the page.
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #33 on: 17:41:39, 27-08-2008 »

I don't think you can go far wrong with the RCA Previn set, Robert, for the reasons Ron has outlined. The criticism of Haitink's "tendency to relate everything to a central European tradition" is a perceptive one, though maybe that will have some impact in making RVW better known in Europe? I find it encouraging that of the four modern post-Boult cycles available, 2.8 of them are by foreign conductors (Bakels being at the helm for four out of five of the BSO Naxos discs). I don't have the Naxos set (I'm sure it's only a matter of time) but have heard good things about it.

The likelihood of Chandos completing the Hickox cycle with the LSO is some way off, I'm afraid. I had an email from them today advising that there's little prospect of No.9 or the Sinfonia Antartica being recorded in the 2008/9 season, due to cost considerations. They have investigated alternatives (I had wondered if they had made any plans to tape live performances with the Philharmonia) but they still wish to record them with the LSO.
« Last Edit: 17:44:46, 27-08-2008 by Il Grande Inquisitor » Logged

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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #34 on: 19:13:18, 27-08-2008 »

What precedent had there been for writing a true choral symphony before 1909? Written in the wake of Elgar’s Sea Pictures, Stanford’s Songs of the Sea and Debussy’s La mer, it was first performed in the same year as Bridge’s The Sea – I wonder what influences these works had on RVW, if any?

Gian Francesco Malipiero's Sinfonia del Mare of 1906 does not as far as we recall use human voices but it does go on for about forty-five minutes and serves as additional demonstration that the idea of a connection between music and the sea was at that era in the air and going around.

Many thanks, again, for this Sydney. Having done a bit of investigation, I have discovered that there exists a recording of the Sinfonia del mare on Naxos, conducted by Antonia de Almeida. It originally appeared on the Marco Polo label, but it's clear they are being reissued on the budget label as this disc is promisingly entitled Volume 1, coupled with his 3rd and 4th symphonies. I downloaded from eMusic this evening and found it a delightful piece of orchestral music! Some interesting lines from the online booklet note:

Like the other two early, unnumbered so-called symphonies (the Sinfonia degli eroi of 1905 and the Sinfonie [sic] del silenzio e de la morte of 1909 - 10), the Sinfonia del mare is really more in the nature of a symphonic poem, though it has no known detailed extra musical story line. The one further verbal clue to the music’s descriptive intentions, apart from the title (which of course means “Sea Symphony”), is a laconic jotting in pencil on the composer’s manuscript score: the single word “NAVIGANDO”. A few features of the music itself – the triumphant, re-echoing fanfare-like motif that appears just over three quarters of the way through, or the solemnly funereal central part of the slow epilogue – may perhaps reflect a more detailed unrevealed narrative. But on the whole the work (which is cast in a single long movement that starts and finishes in slow tempo but contains much animated, even turbulent music on the way) has the air, quite simply, of an evocation of the sea, both in its calmer and in its more agitated moods. Listeners may like to make their own comparisons with better known sea music by other composers; but Malipiero is unlikely yet to have known Debussy’s La mer when he wrote the Sinfonia del mare only a few months after that now-famous piece’s premiere. The central part of the symphony’s epilogue points especially clearly towards its composer’s own maturity: ruthlessly “funerealizing” an idea that has previously been heard in faster tempo, but is now converted into a sombre cor anglais solo, it foreshadows (among other things) the lugubrious orchestral epilogue in the opera Torneo notturno (1929), which is regarded in Italy as one of Malipiero’s supreme achievements.

It's certainly more of a symphonic poem than a traditional symphony and comes in at just under 24 minutes. Well worth members' investigation.
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Andy D
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« Reply #35 on: 21:20:50, 27-08-2008 »

I'm no expert, but having got to know the 4th and 6th symphonies quite well as a teenager

I did too, I had Boult's 4 and 6 on a tape ripped off from a library LP. Then I bought his Sinfonia Antartica on an Ace of Clubs LP. When I got a CD player, among the first CDs I bought were Boult's 4 & 6 (dating from '68/'67) and the nice Mr Preview's 7 & 8 - but I've only ever got to know 4, 6 and 7. I don't really know the rest at all - even 8. However I've borrowed Boult's 8 & 9 dating from '68/'69 from a library and also a score for 8, so I've just been listening to it in an attempt to get to know it. I'll have another go with my own CD later. I got lost near the end of the first movement (around figure 17) Embarrassed so I had to rewind and try to work out what was happening.

I stand in awe of Ron's list of recordings of 5 Shocked
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #36 on: 21:27:18, 27-08-2008 »

I stand in awe of Ron's list of recordings of 5 Shocked

I'm afraid that's not the full complement yet, Andy: I'll add some more later.  Roll Eyes
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time_is_now
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« Reply #37 on: 21:47:22, 27-08-2008 »

I listened to the 8th last night - I have it on a BBC Legends Stokowski issue coupled with Shostakovich 5 - and enjoyed it very much.
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #38 on: 21:57:26, 27-08-2008 »

A fairly exhaustive list of the timings for RVW 5 from the Dough Archive:
Barbirolli (1944)  i 11:18, ii 04:20, iii 11:16, iv 09:10

RVW (1950)        i 12:27, ii 05:31, iii 09:59, iv 10:23

RVW (1952)        i 11:58, ii 05:04, iii 10:13, iv 10:02

Boult (1953)       i 10:56, ii 04:44, iii 10:50, iv 10:24

Barbirolli (1963)  i 11:02, ii 04:58, iii 12.10, iv 10:16

Boult (1970)       i 11:26, ii 05:11, iii 10.50, iv 09:52

Previn (1971)      i 12:49, ii 05:14, iii 12:15, iv 11:13

Rozhdestvensky   i 11:47, ii 05:15, iii 11:52, iv 10:46
(1980)
Gibson (1983)     i 11:35, ii 04:54, iii 12:31, iv 10:10

Handley (1986)    i 12:01, ii 05:09, iii 11:33, iv 10:32

Menuhin (1988)   i 12:10, ii 04:55, iii 10:58, iv 10:47

Previn (1989)      i 12:30, ii 05:14, iii 12:57, iv 09:55

Marriner (1990)   i 12:06, ii 04:23, iii 11:25, iv 11:00

A Davis (1993)    i 12:39, ii 05:00, iii 12:47, iv 10:28

Haitink (1994)     i 12:38, ii 05:33, iii 13:29, iv 11:27

Norrington (1998)i 12:22, ii 04:41, iii 11:10, iv 10:05

Hillgers (2006)    i 11:52, ii 04:30, iii 10:38, iv 09:31

A Davis (2007)    i 11:25, ii 05:22, iii 11:39, iv 10:34

To which I can offer timings for the Bournemouth/Bakels account on Naxos, with a pretty swift account:

Bakels (1996)    i 12:07,  ii 4:45,  iii 11:17,  iv 9:52
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #39 on: 22:00:41, 27-08-2008 »

In O Thou Transcendent, Ursula VW told how she told RVW she had never heard Turandot, so they went to Covent Garden to hear it.  RVW was so entranced by the gongs, he put them in No 8.  Ursula said orchestral managers have been cursing her ever since, as gongs are so expensive to hire.

In my artless Japanese way, I was suddenly reminded with all those gongs and xylophones of Messaien.
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #40 on: 22:45:53, 27-08-2008 »

In O Thou Transcendent, Ursula VW told how she told RVW she had never heard Turandot, so they went to Covent Garden to hear it.  RVW was so entranced by the gongs, he put them in No 8.  Ursula said orchestral managers have been cursing her ever since, as gongs are so expensive to hire.

Yes, I rather like the idea of the VWs watching Turandot, with Ralph not concentrating on the stage-action, but eyes fixed on the percussion section in the pit!
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #41 on: 23:01:17, 27-08-2008 »

And for the Ping, Pang and Pong scenes, who could blame him?
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #42 on: 18:37:42, 30-08-2008 »

I find it encouraging that of the four modern post-Boult cycles available, 2.8 of them are by foreign conductors (Bakels being at the helm for four out of five of the BSO Naxos discs). I don't have the Naxos set (I'm sure it's only a matter of time) but have heard good things about it.

I post to apologise to Sir Andrew Davis for somehow forgetting his BBCSO cycle on Teldec/Warner, which I spotted in HMV today. I was tempted, very tempted, but resisted...for now. Thoughts on his cycle?
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #43 on: 19:05:31, 30-08-2008 »

I know I'll be screamed down on this one, but for me it's the least essential of all the complete cycles so far. They're teflon coated performances which fail to stick in the memory, and betray precious little intervention from the conductor: you get the notes on the page, but little sense of what's behind them: time and again he just misses moments which others make memorable. When he first started the cycle, I read an article in which he berated Barbirolli for 'stopping to smell the flowers along the way': well, that approach works for me: with Davis I wonder sometimes if he even knows the flowers are there - he certainly doesn't acknowledge them. It's a huge disappointment.

The one complete cycle that's out of the catalogue at the moment is Slatkin's, which is a pity: he has far more idea of what the music's all about, and it's altogether better recorded. For all that I find it unidiomatic, even the Haitink's a better bet than Davis. Previn or/(preferably) and Handley will tell you much more about the cycle, after which single issues by others would be better investments. I have the Davis for completeness' sake and because it was cheap, but it's never even fifth choice if I want an RVW symphony.
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #44 on: 19:16:47, 30-08-2008 »

Perceptive comments, Ron. I am recording tonight's BBC2 VW prom (minus Job) as I thought the 9th came off rather well on Tuesday evening. I certainly hope RCA see fit to reissue the Slatkin cycle - I have Nos.5&6, which I think are very good; the fifth is taken quite quickly apart from a luxuriant Romanza and he had a very good rapport with the Philharmonia in concerts I saw.

Interesting guests tonight - well, Jane Asher has some connection to RVW, I suppose - but, Christopher Warren-Green conducted the LCO on a very fine disc of English string music, which included the Tallis Fantasia. I wonder if he'll be allowed to speak about the piece at all?  Wink
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