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Author Topic: who was Shostakovich?  (Read 25287 times)
John W
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« Reply #180 on: 19:56:35, 16-04-2007 »

Rei...

Two Katchaturian piano concerti? Are you sure? As far as I ever known there was just one (with the folksy slow movement with optional flexatone part). Two by Shostakovich, yes, but surely only one from the Armenian?

There is the Concert Rhapsody for Piano and Orchestra, also in D flat major ??

 

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Ron Dough
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« Reply #181 on: 20:02:48, 16-04-2007 »

But that's a one movement piece, surely, John: Reiner specifically refers to a second movement, which is what confused me.....
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John W
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« Reply #182 on: 20:04:19, 16-04-2007 »

So maybe the concerto is the second one  Smiley
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #183 on: 20:08:41, 16-04-2007 »

You're right, Ron... the other one's not really a concerto, but a sort of concertante work...   it was the 1936 piece I had in mind, which is his only concerto...  apologies for the error on that :-)

I was tempted to mention his score for The Oriental Dentist in the "orientalism" thread,  but everyone was so busy recreating the custard pie fight from The Great Race there that I decided to give it a miss Wink

Have you heard the concerto with the flexatone thingy?  I've not.  Sadly the piece seems to have fallen from favour here - I dunno about abroad.  The violin concerto gets played quite a bit though,  and Khachaturian remains a potent influence...  he seems to be waiting in the wings somehow in Irina Belova's piano concerto "Checkmate" (2004). (I.B. won the "Silver Dove" for it in 2005, presented by Putin in person).  Did I send you a copy of that, and if not, would you like one?  I am winging over to London this weekend for 48 carbon-guilty hours only, but I could whack it straight in the postbox at Heathrow if you want?  Legit copy :-)
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
oliver sudden
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« Reply #184 on: 20:28:07, 16-04-2007 »

I'd also query Mahlerian influence in Shostakovich only starting with the fourth symphony: surely the choral finale of his second really couldn't have been inspired by anyone else?
Well, symphonies with choral finales do have another certain notable precedent. And there's surely a hint of O Freunde, nicht diese Töne about it isn't there?
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #185 on: 20:30:01, 16-04-2007 »

Reiner, Who wrote The oriental dentist? I am so behind everybody.
What is flexatione thingy? I am so ashamed of myself. I know so little. I know Khachaturian violin concerto (sort of, it was played often on the radio). I don't know Irina Belova and her concero Checkmate. You said it is influenced by Khachaturyan?
Shostakovich is very absolete and doesnot influece anybody at the moment, I suppose. (At least not directly).

Ron, you know Shostakovich symphonies much better than I do (blush). Can you tell me when do you think Mahler influence is heard in Shostakovich's music? He did not have right from the start? He met conductor Bruno Walter in Warsaw while competing in piano competition and his first symphony was played abroad with success.
I am so much behind you, Ron. If you have patience I like to know what you think.
I have to get myself a set of his syphonies. I don't have any of them at the moment. 

Was it then Beethoven's influence there in the second symphony?
« Last Edit: 20:36:52, 16-04-2007 by trained-pianist » Logged
Ron Dough
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« Reply #186 on: 20:31:02, 16-04-2007 »

I've known the piece since I was a child, Rei, thanks to a recording on a Classics Club 10" LP purchased by my dad in the mid-fifties, which I'm pretty sure used the flexatone, though most of the subsequent recordings that have come my way since omit this optional extra, which is basically just a posh musical saw. Since it happens that a recent second-hand acquisition incudes a performance which does have a flexatone in the second movement, I'm sure some way of satisfying your curiosity can be managed.  Wink
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #187 on: 20:36:20, 16-04-2007 »

Funnily enough, I was listening to this just yesterday:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Khachaturian-Orchestral-Works-Aram-Ilyich/dp/B0000030WK/ref=sr_1_7/202-5913406-5145461?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176751887&sr=8-7

along with lots of Tjeknavorian's other Khachaturian recordings for ASV. Flexatone is used in the second movement, giving it a weird, haunting feel.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #188 on: 20:40:45, 16-04-2007 »

Ollie,

I was thinking more of all those suspensions in Shostakovich 2; to my way of thinking the choral sound itself bears unmistakeable Mahlerian infuence; whereas 3 seems to have a LvB 9 tribute recit and an altogether simpler style for the choral movement...

t-p,

It's dinner time chez Dough - I'll come back to you later
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #189 on: 20:42:09, 16-04-2007 »

Tiny footnote - the Khachaturian Violin Concerto is also quite frequently learned (if not performed) by flautists (with appropriate transpositions). A bit like the Prokofiev D major Sonata in reverse (which was written for flute first then adapted for Oistrakh).

Interesting how these threads develop - a Khachaturian thread might not have prompted anywhere near as many postings, perhaps proving that context is all!
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Il Grande Inquisitor
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« Reply #190 on: 20:45:43, 16-04-2007 »

Tiny footnote - the Khachaturian Violin Concerto is also quite frequently learned (if not performed) by flautists (with appropriate transpositions). A bit like the Prokofiev D major Sonata in reverse (which was written for flute first then adapted for Oistrakh).

Interesting how these threads develop - a Khachaturian thread might not have prompted anywhere near as many postings, perhaps proving that context is all!

 Cheesy How funny! The Prokofiev was the odd one out in a Musical Connections round at another place at the weekend, because it was appropriated by the violin from the original flute, whereas the others were 'nicked' by flautists!!

Franck – Violin Sonata in A
Prokofiev – Violin Sonata in D
Khachaturian – Violin Concerto in D minor
Mozart – Violin Sonata in F K376

I have recordings by Emmanuel Pahud and Jennifer Stinton of the Khachaturian concerto for flute (as well as a couple of violin versions!) and, despite the at times heavy orchestration...it really seems to work on the flute!
« Last Edit: 20:49:36, 16-04-2007 by Il Grande Inquisitor » Logged

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autoharp
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« Reply #191 on: 20:53:21, 16-04-2007 »

Reiner - the Peter Katin recording (+ LSO/Hugo Rignold) uses the flexatone - and very effectively too.
« Last Edit: 21:18:43, 16-04-2007 by autoharp » Logged
Ron Dough
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« Reply #192 on: 23:05:36, 16-04-2007 »

t-p,

The first symphony, written while he was still a student, already has an unmistakeable Shostakovich sound; the next two, which are perhaps symphonies only in name, are rather wild experimental works written for specific state occasions, breakneck collages of all sorts of ideas apparently thrown together rather like a choppily edited film, perhaps not inappropriately for a young man who'd spent his teenage years playing for the silent cinema (although the more detailed work I'm doing on the second is starting to reveal more of a structure than I'd first identified). I've already suggested that the choral finale to the second has Mahlerian scale and progressions, whereas in the third it's not so much the choral finale (which always strikes me rather more as Beethoven 9 meets the Red Army Ensemble) as a tiny but very Mahlerian adagio passage which is fragmented and interrupted rather than allowed to develop - not that anything in either of the two is really allowed to develop.

As others on this thread have pointed out, the fourth symphony is probably the most Mahlerian of the whole sequence, with echoes of the birdsong, of the Viennese Ländler, and the depth and range of his symphonies. Not a slavish copy in any way, but there's an unmistakeable flavour of Mahler at times. As must also be very evident, I have become particularly captivated with this work, which seems to me a masterpiece of the highest order, capable of being listened to and studied day after day.

Since there was an entire cycle of the symphonies on R3 last year, it's rather unlikely that you'll be able to hear them all on the radio again soon. The rarer ones really don't turn up all that often, though the middle group from (5 to 11) are broadcast rather more frequently. CDs on the other hand, could be an easy answer. Several complete sets of the symphonies are readily available, some very cheaply. By and large most of the regulars here would recommend a Kondrashin cycle as first choice, until recently not easy to come by in an edition from Korea, but very recently much easier to source in a new reissue. If you don't have much spare cash, then the Barshai cycle, though far from perfect, is rarely less than acceptable, and often available at rock-bottom prices, as here;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00005UW2B/ref=pd_bbs_sr_olp_1/202-4411543-5828653?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1176759825&sr=8-1

the set doesn't give you absolutely everything that the symphonies hold, but it's not a bad introduction at all.

There are also sets by Rostropovich (haven't heard all of them yet, but like what I have heard) and Jansons (sorry, doesn't work for me at all, though I seem to be in the minority) available at a good price: though whatever you buy, if you take to the symphonies then eventually Kondrashin will prove a must. When we get down to individual symphonies the choice widens, but the one name to look out for is Mravinsky, who was the other great champion of Shostakovich's music, though he only ever performed the works which weren't considered controversial because his wife was an important party member and there could be no upsetting of the apple cart. So there was never a Mravinsky performance, let alone recording of the fourth (even after its première a radio broadcast was forbidden by the party because it was still felt that the piece was too dangerous for mass consumption) nor the thirteenth, for example....
« Last Edit: 00:13:29, 17-04-2007 by Ron Dough » Logged
Ron Dough
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« Reply #193 on: 00:34:32, 17-04-2007 »

And a quick heads-up for tomorrow night/early Wednesday morning at 02.00 hrs: Dmitri Shostakovich playing his second piano concerto. I'm aware that there is a pianist grandson of the same name, but since the conductor here died in 1988, I think we can assume this the composer himself in concert, giving us an opportunity to judge his touch at the keyboard for ourselves. Perhaps if Jonathan Swain is about, he might enlighten us....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/throughthenight/pip/hv8ys/
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #194 on: 07:02:57, 17-04-2007 »

That would be this recording then?



It's rather special. Not sentimental at all, unsurprisingly enough. Hair-raising tempi even though Shostakovich's fingers weren't quite up to it by that stage.

Was that the same time they recorded this? Rummages through shelves - yes, May 1958. Excuse to give another heads-up for my favourite 11th.

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