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Author Topic: The Graupner bug  (Read 1864 times)
aaron cassidy
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« Reply #15 on: 02:45:33, 05-07-2007 »

Yeah, no, I'll amend that, having now listened to each of the tracks a second time.  It's absolutely boring.
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #16 on: 03:05:56, 05-07-2007 »

So to further discourage discussion on my own upstart Graupner thread (the original! the misguided!), I want to use this thread to go back to "Mein Herze schwimmt in Blut" again. First of all, the text is unlike most others that I am familiar with from Bach's cantatas (perhaps with a few exceptions like "Ach wie flüchtig, ach wie nichtig" or moments from St. John's Passion) in that its texts are so 'graphic' in the contemporary sense of gory -- perhaps, I don't know, even 'expressionistic' is a good word.

This impression, as well as the fact that the final 6/8 number ends without an instrumental postlude helped to convince me of the wrong conclusion that this work was not by Bach. And when Graupner came along to (falsely) claim it, I handed it to him. The other movements, i.e. the recit and the chorale prelude with solo viola, are consistent with Bach's style. Not sure about the opening oboe obbligato, though I can't say for sure why it's giving me static.

So, is this solo cantata not far enough deviant from Bach's broad palette of style to make one wonder whether it is by him? Feel free to say no, and I will admit I was not only wrong, but thoroughly wrong. I'll go back to my hidey-hole.

In any case, perhaps now one can understand the sources of my misunderstanding that doomed the other Graupner thread.

But the thing about grains still sticks. Graupen are groats, or pearl barley. So Graupner's ancestors were barley farmers, or at least people who enjoyed or traded in barley.
« Last Edit: 04:07:41, 05-07-2007 by Chafing Dish » Logged
oliver sudden
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« Reply #17 on: 10:19:40, 05-07-2007 »

Don't know if Graupner actually claimed it for himself. He did apparently get to the text first though.

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=5888

http://www5.haenssler.de/show.sxp/6351.html?&art_id=62486

Note that Bach appears to have set an extra 'e'.

And you're saying that not only did he write gorgeous music (OK it's too boring for Aaron but what isn't? Wink) but he has a family connection with...

...beer?  Shocked

What's not to like?

I liked the beginning of your thread much better, CD. Sorry I was typing when you posted it.  Embarrassed
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eruanto
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« Reply #18 on: 12:43:09, 05-07-2007 »

Graupner had friends called Heinichen and Fasch. They both get ClassicalNet pages (Heinichen's is very substantial) while Graupner doesn't.

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/fasch.html
http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/acc/heinichen.html


That's what happens when you start going around with an alcoholic and a Fasch-ist.
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #19 on: 13:02:08, 05-07-2007 »

And let's leave Cannabich out of it. Wink

In fact Graupner was briefly Fasch's teacher, although he wasn't much older - wiki doesn't even mention this.

For us chalumeau nuts Fasch is a very important chap. He was Kapellmeister at Zerbst from 1722. In 1724 the court purchased two chalumeaus from Dresden; while Fasch was in Zerbst he wrote a chalumeau concerto, probably for a chap called Johann Christian Klotsch who was also a bassoonist. This same Klotsch was engaged in Darmstadt by Graupner in 1735, probably on Fasch's recommendation, just before Graupner started writing all his chalumeau gear - many chalumeau parts in the Darmstadt circle are printed on the back of bassoon parts and many are written in the bass clef sounding an octave higher. (Except the Fasch concerto in written in the treble clef and appears to have been for an instrument the size of a sopranino recorder, as does the Graupner overture from which our Aria III comes.)

I'll get me anorak.  Undecided

(If Aaron was bored before I expect he's well catatonic by now.)
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #20 on: 13:30:24, 05-07-2007 »

Don't know if Graupner actually claimed it for himself. He did apparently get to the text first though.
I didn't mean he actively claimed it, but the minute someone mentioned to me that it may be by him, I succumbed to the suggestion, based on the aforementioned set of impressions from having once conducted Bach's relatively underappreciated cantata, which I still think is a stylistic anomaly until someone corrects me.

Quote
I liked the beginning of your thread much better, CD. Sorry I was typing when you posted it.  Embarrassed
Don't feel bad. I like the image of uploading frenzy. And this thread leaves nothing to be desired. Except more posts!

Which one is Aaron? I can't quite make it out:
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George Garnett
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« Reply #21 on: 14:30:53, 05-07-2007 »

For us chalumeau nuts Fasch is a very important chap. He was Kapellmeister at Zerbst from 1722. In 1724 the court purchased two chalumeaus from Dresden; while Fasch was in Zerbst he wrote a chalumeau concerto, probably for a chap called Johann Christian Klotsch who was also a bassoonist. This same Klotsch was engaged in Darmstadt by Graupner in 1735, probably on Fasch's recommendation, just before Graupner started writing all his chalumeau gear - many chalumeau parts in the Darmstadt circle are printed on the back of bassoon parts and many are written in the bass clef sounding an octave higher. (Except the Fasch concerto in written in the treble clef and appears to have been for an instrument the size of a sopranino recorder, as does the Graupner overture from which our Aria III comes.)

...presumably so that Fasch could reach the parts that Heinichen coul..  Ouch! That hurt!
« Last Edit: 15:08:58, 05-07-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
richard barrett
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« Reply #22 on: 16:16:18, 05-07-2007 »

Nice to see the Baroque board creaking back into action.

I'm fond of the Graupner I've heard (including indeed the bits Ollie posted), which is mostly the CD by Das Kleine Konzert. It isn't really the kind of music that jumps up and sticks to your face, then sticks a tube down your throat into your stomach and inserts an embryo which later bursts out and eats everyone in sight, but to me there's something exquisite but not-quite-perfectly-made about it which I find attractive. But I'm a bit of a chalumeau nut too.
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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #23 on: 17:51:30, 05-07-2007 »

Thanks for the sendspace stuff, Ollie!

These pieces are quite a find -- you say Groatner wrote 1400+ cantatas? are you sure you're not off by a digit? Actually that sounds close to what I remember hearing -- and disbelieving. Then again, quantity is not quality, eh? I'm interested what you turn up at the libraries in Darmstadt. Remember to wash your hands.

Here are my questions for your snooping expedition:

1. Who created the texts to the cantatas?
2. What are the most typical obbligato instruments?
3. Is his manuscript legible? Did he have a copyist? One hopes so.

 
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martle
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« Reply #24 on: 18:02:46, 05-07-2007 »

the kind of music that jumps up and sticks to your face, then sticks a tube down your throat into your stomach and inserts an embryo which later bursts out and eats everyone in sight

 Cheesy
...been trying to write music that does that for years.  Shocked

Sorry. I'll run along now.
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Green. Always green.
Ron Dough
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« Reply #25 on: 18:10:50, 05-07-2007 »

the kind of music that jumps up and sticks to your face, then sticks a tube down your throat into your stomach and inserts an embryo which later bursts out and eats everyone in sight

 Cheesy
...been trying to write music that does that for years.  Shocked
 

But surely there's one piece of yours where something like that all but happens literally, martle  Wink
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martle
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« Reply #26 on: 18:14:19, 05-07-2007 »

You beast, Ron!  Grin
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #27 on: 18:18:04, 05-07-2007 »

And very appropriately for such a tale-oriented answer, it appears to have been my Arabian Nights posting....
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oliver sudden
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« Reply #28 on: 01:07:30, 06-07-2007 »

you say Groatner wrote 1400+ cantatas? are you sure you're not off by a digit?

...

1. Who created the texts to the cantatas?
2. What are the most typical obbligato instruments?
3. Is his manuscript legible? Did he have a copyist? One hopes so.

The only information I have is that there are 1418 church and 24 secular cantatas. I won't be counting them for myself... a chap called Friedrich Noack catalogued them in the 1920s. Someone started to list them on wiki but only got as far as 1709 which considering that's the year Graupner started writing them in Darmstadt and that he kept on writing them until he went blind in 1753 is less than helpful. As far as I know the Darmstadt court needed a new cantata every Sunday and feast day; Graupner shared the job with Carl Briegel from 1709-1712 and with Gottfried Grünewald from 1713-1739, then he was on his own. They don't seem to have reused pieces.

From 1719-1743 Graupner's main librettist was Johann Conrad Lichtenberg. He was also Graupner's brother-in-law (hey, JSB had Altnickol after all). Don't know what the most typical obbligato instruments are; I think 82 of the cantatas have chalumeau(s).

His manuscript is usually so clear that one of his contemporaries (it may even have been Telemann, I can't find the source just now) said you could hardly tell his manuscript from a professional copy. You can find one on wiki; here's another.

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Chafing Dish
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« Reply #29 on: 01:17:05, 06-07-2007 »

Again I say: thanks Oz
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