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Ian Pace
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« Reply #30 on: 11:52:16, 21-06-2007 » |
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Post on Liszt and 'stride' writing, with examples, deleted
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« Last Edit: 02:37:44, 10-10-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #31 on: 11:58:12, 21-06-2007 » |
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From the foundation of stride, Tatum made a quantum leap in terms of technique and theory, and honed a new style that would greatly influence later jazz pianists, such as Thelonious Monk, Oscar Peterson, Billy Taylor, Bill Evans, and Chick Corea. Tatum's extensive use of the pentatonic scale, for example, may have inspired later pianists to further mine its possibilities as a device for soloing.
Tatum introduced a strong, swinging pulse to jazz piano, as well as other new sounds in his improvisation and self-accompaniment. Tatum rarely abandoned the original melodic lines of the songs he played, preferring instead to feature innovative reharmonization (changing the chord progressions supporting the melodies). Occasionally, Tatum's reharmonizing was simply a matter of altering the root movements of a tune so as to more effectively apply already commonly used chords from early jazz and classical music. Yet many of Tatum's harmonic concepts and larger chord voicings were well ahead of their time in the 1930s (except for their partial emergence in popular song.
I never heard of him. I thought Scott Joplin was the first in rag time.
Ian, this is fascinating to read.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #32 on: 12:04:04, 21-06-2007 » |
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From the foundation of stride, Tatum made a quantum leap in terms of technique and theory, and honed a new style that would greatly influence later jazz pianists, such as Thelonious Monk, Oscar Peterson, Billy Taylor, Bill Evans, and Chick Corea. Tatum's extensive use of the pentatonic scale, for example, may have inspired later pianists to further mine its possibilities as a device for soloing.
Tatum introduced a strong, swinging pulse to jazz piano, as well as other new sounds in his improvisation and self-accompaniment. Tatum rarely abandoned the original melodic lines of the songs he played, preferring instead to feature innovative reharmonization (changing the chord progressions supporting the melodies). Occasionally, Tatum's reharmonizing was simply a matter of altering the root movements of a tune so as to more effectively apply already commonly used chords from early jazz and classical music. Yet many of Tatum's harmonic concepts and larger chord voicings were well ahead of their time in the 1930s (except for their partial emergence in popular song.
I never heard of him. I thought Scott Joplin was the first in rag time.
Ian, this is fascinating to read.
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« Last Edit: 02:38:43, 10-10-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #33 on: 12:12:19, 21-06-2007 » |
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Thank you very much. I did not know all that.
A friend yesterday offer to lend a book on jazz, but it is too much to take at the moment. I am practising solo pieces, cleaning the house and trying to get my equilibrium back after last academic year.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #34 on: 12:15:49, 21-06-2007 » |
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Short bibliography of books on jazz deleted
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« Last Edit: 02:39:34, 10-10-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #35 on: 12:38:36, 21-06-2007 » |
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Ian, thank you very much. You are amazing in your wide knowledge.
I have a few people here who would be glad to know this names of books and people.
I am passing the information on to them.
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Daniel
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« Reply #36 on: 12:40:41, 21-06-2007 » |
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Well clearly you know far more about this than I do, but don't Liszt's LH accompaniments here come themselves from the kind of accomp. you find in a lot folk music that Liszt explores, playing out I - V bass lines with the odd passing notes?
As far as Tatum's stride playing goes, it seems to me that he has this almost perfect marriage of a physical and a mental image of the harmonic map that he can race through it naturally at insane speeds, simply because his mind travels comfortably with at the same speed.
I personally would feel that the example you quote is ragtime in the hands of a virtuoso, rather than a later version of the more 'folky' Liszt example. The bass line 5 bars from the end for example, has just got that tilted hat, ragtime 'hey boys' thing to it.
Weirdly I've just thought of this Schumann song, is it in Dichterliebe(?) which suddenly sounds rather funky and fast-stride in its surroundings, is it the one about the rose and the lily, I might be wrong, but it's in there somewhere.
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martle
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« Reply #37 on: 12:41:06, 21-06-2007 » |
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Just to second Ian's recommendation of the Schuller books. Very, very good.
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Green. Always green.
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trained-pianist
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« Reply #38 on: 12:45:59, 21-06-2007 » |
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The speed in passages increases if you play it backward. Start from the last note and go backward slowly. Forward and backward method really works (for mental image too).
The orther point is: All new is forgotten old stuff. (or something like that).
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Jonathan
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« Reply #39 on: 13:06:28, 21-06-2007 » |
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Thanks for that suggestion t-p, I'll have to try that!
Ian, may I ask is this another article for the (UK) Liszt society? If so, i found your one in last years journal most interesting.
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Best regards,
Jonathan
*********************************************
"as the housefly of destiny collides with the windscreen of fate..."
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #40 on: 13:07:00, 21-06-2007 » |
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Information on Liszt and the Roma, and musical examples, deleted
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« Last Edit: 02:40:35, 10-10-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #41 on: 13:11:29, 21-06-2007 » |
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Ian, may I ask is this another article for the (UK) Liszt society? If so, i found your one in last years journal most interesting.
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« Last Edit: 02:41:13, 10-10-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Daniel
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« Reply #42 on: 16:26:26, 24-06-2007 » |
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Thanks Ian for those book suggestions. I suppose why I imagine the sort of 'stride' accompaniment you are describing in Liszt may have come from a folk background, is that you do hear so much of that in the folk music that we do know and have recordings of. My inference has always been (but certainly without any scholarly foundation) that this must have come from somewhere, and that 'somewhere' was its own past. Cziffra doing his own version of Tea for Two, not at all dissimilar to Tatum's in some ways (in fact, sounds like he was trying in part to imitate him)! Hmm, yes, I have heard this and find it painful I'm afraid. Much as I admire Cziffra, this has no swing, no heartbeat, it is just a lot of notes played fast. He concentrates on an florid RH, the aspect of Tatum I like least, and to my ears, ends up with an empty display. Just listening to two seconds of Tatum playing the same tune and all the things missing from the Cziffra come flooding back in. And yes! That's the Schumann. Thanks for posting it. Put that LH down 2 octaves and you have yourself a nice little intro for any number of Music Hall favourites.  |
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IgnorantRockFan
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« Reply #43 on: 21:58:12, 27-06-2007 » |
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All this academic discussion is far beyond me, I'm afraid  I knew nothing of Liszt's work until a few months ago when, on a whim, I bought a disc called "Liszt Works for Violin and Piano", (Rachel Barton and Thomas Labé. I found to to be some of the most beautiful music I've ever heard. The sleeve notes say that there were plans for a second disc, which would complete the recording of all of Lizst's surviving violin and piano music. I haven't been able to find this second disc -- does anybody know if it exists? And can somebody explain why the CD calls him Ferenc Liszt, when everybody else calls him Franz?  |
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Allegro, ma non tanto
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #44 on: 22:19:34, 27-06-2007 » |
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And can somebody explain why the CD calls him Ferenc Liszt, when everybody else calls him Franz? Liszt was baptised neither Franz nor Ferenc, but Franciscus, and was known at home as either Zischy or Franzi. He signed himself 'F. Liszt'. How he became known as Franz or Ferenc I'm not quite sure (Walker isn't clear on this). |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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