Hearing bits of the Bruckner tonight brought a couple of things to mind...

Did his sypmhonies get renumbered sometime?  I'm sure I remember Romantic being No.8, but I also see it occasionally as No.4.  Can anyone tell me how the old set relates to the new?

And a point more for discussion.....  When I was growing up, Mahler and Bruckner always seemed to be put in the same bracket.  I guess because they both wrote big symphonies.  But listening (then and ) tonight I can't see how they are related.  Bruckner to me is more structural - harmonic and rhythmic - whilst Mahler seems more fluid and emotional - more melodic.

Anyone care to comment on the relationship between Bruckner and Mahler?

Tommo

I too have never come across the 8th as the romantic. But I am curious to check out any Giulini recording (as I recently encountered his Chicago 9th and have enjoyed it very much).

The 6th is possibly my favourite and Jochum's Dresden reading is particularly fine, though Donald Runnicles also turned in a fine performance at this summer's Edinburgh festival (which was broadcast back in September).

As far as Mahler and Bruckner go, I don't think they're all that similar. True they both wrote large (both in length and forces) and, these days, crowd pleasing, symphonies. But they're very different too. Bruckner stuck to a 4 movement structure (the 9th would likely have kept to this had death not forestalled him). Bruckner never called on choral forces for his symphonic. I think Bruckner doesn't share Mahler's genius for orchestration. At the same time, what Bruckner does, particularly in the way he builds his themes and climaxes, is rather special too.


regards, Tam

Opilec, Mahler made a Piano reduction of Bruckner's 3rd Symphony, the 'Wagner' Symphony

Except much, much louder.

It is supposed to be hard to bring off in performance, and certainly the Chicago SO/Solti recording, which starts more impressively than any other, does seem to run out of steam in the middle. My favourite version is Gunter Wand's earlier (1988) one of two with the NDRSO; the much lauded Klemperer and, oddly, Wand's final (1995) recording with the NDRSO both leave me cold.

My favourite Bruckner symphony (at the moment, anyway) is the Ninth, as long as it has the fourth movement. I've heard all the various completions, and the most satisfying by far, IMO, is William Carragan's (a Chandos recording, Oslo PO/Talmi, now deleted on CD, but available as a download from the Chandos Web site). Stephen Johnson presented an excellent item on more recent recordings of the sketches and a newer completion on CD Review about eighteen months ago which gave great insight into Bruckner's working methods and just how difficult the reconstruction of his intentions from his sketches must be. I was left firmly of the opinion that any completion of the fourth movement of Bruckner's Ninth needs a certain amount of creative, rather than merely musicological, input. This is where Carragan's version is so superior to all others, in my opinion. The sketches are a bit thin towards the end of the movement. Carragan apparently composed about 15 bars which make his final peroration much more impressive (and much more Bruckner-like) than any produced by slavish devotion to the available material.

I have Asakina's recording of the Eighth, obtained via Japanese Amazon (with fingers crossed, because my Japanese is er, non-existent). The trouble is, there are so many outstanding, earth-shattering versions of the Eighth that Asakina's sounds (so far, to me at least) a bit run-of-the-mill. Perhaps it just needs more hearings to grow on me, but I don't sit down to a Bruckner symphony every evening!

Surely you mean has a fourth movement, since Bruckner never got anywhere near a performable finale.

Does it make sense to talk of the Bruckner Ninth when including a finale? Perhaps just a Bruckner Ninth? Or the Bruckner/Carrigan Ninth?

I'd honestly never realised the finale of Bruckner's Ninth was anywhere near a completeable state. For my part, I'm happy with what came from Anton's pen alone, as incomplete as it is.

It's been done:

http://www.abruckner.com/data/documents/MartheB9Essay.pdf

...although I haven't heard the results.

I agree that even the Carragan completion sounds threadbare at times, but the bones of it are pretty much Bruckner's creation - his first thoughts, at least (the underlying structure is apparently virtually complete in sketch form). And the magnificent descending-scale chorale tune, which is pure Bruckner when first heard, is too good to miss. Carragan's realisation of its initial quiet reappearance with flute counterpoint, prior to the coda, I find quite inspired.

At least, I think that bit is Carragan; without having the source material and the completion in study score form, it's difficult to be sure what has been added - I think I'll have to see if a score of the Carragan version is available.

Listening to the Carragan version just as music, trying to dissociate it from its origins, is (for me, anyway) very rewarding. The Cohrs/Samale/Mazzuca version fails this test - faithful to the existing sketches it may be, but it doesn't persuade me that its ending would have satisfied Bruckner. I'm convinced he would have returned and fleshed out that part of the structure with more contrapuntal lines.

The crucial thing for me is that, having heard the "fourth movement" in various versions, I can no longer think of the three-movement Bruckner 9 as satisfying in itself. So perhaps doubters should stay away from all completions...