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Author Topic: A few naive questions.....  (Read 4377 times)
George Garnett
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« Reply #75 on: 09:06:57, 26-06-2007 »

Many thanks for those helpful responses. Much appreciated. I'm much clearer now on how the terms are being used here though quite relieved really to discover they are as ambiguous as I suspected they might be. 

[Mediation].....I must confess I've never previously come across the meaning which both Ian and George are conversant with. (I never said I was clever though!)

Me neither actually, or at least I was only conversant with it from Ian's posts, which is why I asked. It does seem to me to be a distinct usage rather than one which can entirely be reconciled with the 'nothing getting in the way' sense, but that's fair enough and copable with.

Now hang on a moment there, Richard. I'm the not clever one round here. I'm not having anyone else muscling in on my territory. 
 
« Last Edit: 17:16:46, 08-09-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
Chafing Dish
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« Reply #76 on: 09:23:12, 26-06-2007 »

Thanks, that's all clear now!

Did I really say that?
Well, you typed it. Whether you said it, I can't really ascertain.
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #77 on: 10:49:14, 26-06-2007 »

[Mediation].....I must confess I've never previously come across the meaning which both Ian and George are conversant with. (I never said I was clever though!)

Me neither actually, or at least I was only conversant with it from Ian's posts, which is why I asked. It does seem to me to be a distinct usage rather than one which can entirely be reconciled with the 'nothing getting in the way' sense, but that's fair enough and copable with.
Mediation in the sense I defined it is a term commonly used in musicology and in critical theory. Especially by Adorno, who takes the concept from Hegel (quite a fair number of terms common to critical theory have their origins in Hegel, not least the term 'the other' (die Andere) which comes directly from Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit). If interested, a critique of Adorno's use of Hegel's term (which is rather more particular than in the sense I defined it) can be found here. If one believes, as I do, that composition usually draws upon pre-existing musical language and history (including one's own) as well as wider concerns, thoughts, desires, which have an existence prior to and outside of the first person at the moment of composition, then mediation seems an appropriate term to describe the creative process.
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #78 on: 10:57:14, 26-06-2007 »

Just spotted all this ...

'Mediation' is basically derived from Adorno, although you'll hear it used often enough in a certain kind of writing now without specific reference to him. It basically refers to Adorno's idea that art exists in a certain relation to society (base and superstructure, if you will, although Adorno wouldn't accept all the implications of those terms), but that it doesn't simply mirror society. Mediation is the process by which art's relation to what is sedimented in it (to use another term you asked about) becomes critical (another term that Ian has been known to use Wink ) rather than naive, I suppose. [Edit: Ian's posted while I was writing the rest of my message - his explanation is possibly a bit clearer but I'll leave mine up anyway.]

One of the tensions that you might occasionally identify in the use of the term is whether mediation is an inevitable aspect of art's relation to the world, and if so, what it means to say that certain artists or certain art is insufficiently mediated. In other words, can one decide to mediate? (I'm being a little bit deliberately stupid here. Adorno would say that of course one can't decide, but that doesn't mean some art doesn't embody the contradictions better than other art.)

'Gesture': yes, I always wonder if it's worth trying to pin people who use that term down to a more precise meaning, but it basically means what it says.

'Timbre' and 'texture': I would have said (in answer to your original question) that yes, it's basically the difference between the (inherent, though variable/controllable) sound quality of one instrument and the compositional effects derived from combining instruments (or from writing in a certain way for a single instrument - e.g. 'a dense piano texture'). But I do quite like Richard's definition to do with things continuing through time ...
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
George Garnett
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« Reply #79 on: 11:02:57, 26-06-2007 »

Ah, goddit! Thanks Ian [and t-i-n, who posted just as I was sending this] I can sort of see where it comes from now though it seems to have ended up quite some distance away from Hegel (and got a bit 'reified' in the process Wink ). (Ditto 'The Other').

But I've got my bearings a bit more now. Thanks.
« Last Edit: 11:08:57, 26-06-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
Ian Pace
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« Reply #80 on: 11:32:42, 26-06-2007 »

There are lots of terms that start off being defined quite specifically by major thinkers, and then are taken up more loosely and used in a relatively broad sense by those involved in cultural and critical theory. Examples include mediation, the other, hegemony (from Gramsci), reification (from Lukács), deconstruction (from Derrida) and recently any number of terms from Deleuze which look flashy and frequently serve to make things much more impenetrable than necessary (deterritorialisation, molecular/molar, majoritarian/minoritarian, desiring-production, etc., etc.). The popularisation of such things is a mixed blessing; often when, say, the word 'deconstruction' is used, something as simple as 'taking apart' or 'unpacking' would do fine; Derrida's original conception is stripped of that which makes it unique. But in the case of mediation, reification, and a few other terms (not necessarily 'the other') there does not seem to be any simpler term which is appropriate. Overall, I feel some of the concepts and vocabulary bequeathed by the German idealist tradition has wider application and significance than the more tricksy and dazzling stuff that comes from French post-structuralism and the like. When one has read countless articles that brandish their Deleuzian jargon on their sleeves at every possible opportunity, and then after finally penetrating that the dearth of any real arguments is revealed.... Smiley
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
time_is_now
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« Reply #81 on: 11:39:54, 26-06-2007 »

There are lots of terms that start off being defined quite specifically by major thinkers, and then are taken up more loosely and used in a relatively broad sense by those involved in cultural and critical theory.
Of course, that's not to say that they can't start off with one relatively precise meaning in the work of one major thinker and then later take on a different but equally precise meaning in another. 'The other' would be a good example, coming as you say from Hegel and, indeed, being often used in a rather fuzzy sense these days but also having quite specific and important meanings in the work of Jacques Lacan (where the distinction between 'the other' and 'the Other' is crucial) and, a completely different but equally important meaning, in Emmanuel Levinas (which to some extent is influential on Derrida, though the term 'the other' itself is not so important in Derrida).

'Mediation' would be a similar example: (what I hear as) its Adornoian sense is at least as important as its roots in Hegel for contemporary critical theory, especially in aesthetics.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
richard barrett
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« Reply #82 on: 12:00:59, 26-06-2007 »

Mediation in the sense I defined it is a term commonly used in musicology and in critical theory. Especially by Adorno

<gasp of surprise>
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George Garnett
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« Reply #83 on: 12:32:46, 26-06-2007 »

There are lots of terms that start off being defined quite specifically by major thinkers, and then are taken up more loosely and used in a relatively broad sense by those involved in cultural and critical theory.
Of course, that's not to say that they can't start off with one relatively precise meaning in the work of one major thinker and then later take on a different but equally precise meaning in another.(t-i-n)

Indeed so (to both Smiley). It's just that it's obviously useful and important to know which particular use is in play at any particular moment. The article Ian gave a link to....

If interested, a critique of Adorno's use of Hegel's term (which is rather more particular than in the sense I defined it) can be found here.

.... gives an admirably brainy demonstration of this. Good stuff IMHO, not that I know Adorno nearly well enough to know whether what looks like a pretty damaging critique is one that he can survive. Incidentally, the word 'oriental' at the bottom of page 19 must surely be an Freudian-inspired typo, mustn't it Cheesy? Or is it a mega-subtle Adorno joke that is way over my head?
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time_is_now
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« Reply #84 on: 12:46:52, 26-06-2007 »

I couldn't work out where that 'oriental' came from either, George, but I didn't read the whole thing so I thought I might have missed something. It did seem an unlikely intrusion though. I blame Sorabji.

I think Adorno's survived enough attacks now that he won't be killed off by Brian O'Connor, though I'm not sure whether O'Connor was sure whether he was really aiming to produce a 'damaging critique' anyway ... Interesting stuff though, as you say.

My own beef about Adorno was always that he came up predictably often as the only modern thinker a lot of musicologists seemed to be aware of (e.g. http://www.lancs.ac.uk/sma/news/2002_07_winter.htm , if you really want an embarrassing view of my younger self), though I haven't been heavily involved in institutional musicology since about 2003 and Ian has given me to understand that Deleuze is much more visible these days than he ever was back then.
« Last Edit: 12:50:09, 26-06-2007 by time_is_now » Logged

The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
TimR-J
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« Reply #85 on: 15:11:08, 26-06-2007 »

My own beef about Adorno was always that he came up predictably often as the only modern thinker a lot of musicologists seemed to be aware of (e.g. http://www.lancs.ac.uk/sma/news/2002_07_winter.htm , if you really want an embarrassing view of my younger self), though I haven't been heavily involved in institutional musicology since about 2003 and Ian has given me to understand that Deleuze is much more visible these days than he ever was back then.

I know what you mean. Without having investigated it terribly hard, I've sometimes wondered whether this is simply due to the "Darmstadt effect", or whether it's because he's one of a very small number of recent theorists (including Deleuze) to have a high profile both inside and outside musicology. In my experience, music theorists tend to stick to their field*, and more general theorists either run scared of music, or address it in such simplistic terms as to be useless.

*Outside ethno/anthropology, how many music theorists attempt to extend their findings beyond music itself?
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time_is_now
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« Reply #86 on: 15:27:22, 26-06-2007 »

Indeed, Tim, except that 'outside musicology' Adorno seems to me (I'm going to face the slings and arrows of Pace and quartertone for this!) to be somewhat out of fashion in a way that certainly isn't the case for Deleuze.

In fact, Adorno's been out of fashion for so long in philosophy departments that by now he's back in fashion, and I think Adorno scholarship has probably benefitted from the break in a way that what one might term 'Adorno musicology' hasn't ...

On the other hand, there are some intelligent Adorno musicologists and, I expect, some less intelligent Adorno scholars in philosophy departments, so I guess all that's really required is a bit of intelligence and imagination.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
TimR-J
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« Reply #87 on: 15:41:57, 26-06-2007 »

You're probably right, tin - I don't really know much about what goes on in philosophy departments these days. My sense of Adorno's broad acceptance stems largely from the fact that in a flat-share with 7 other masters' students, all from different departments, TWA was the only philosopher on all our reading lists...
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time_is_now
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« Reply #88 on: 15:45:02, 26-06-2007 »

Quote
7 other masters' students, all from different departments
Were any of them from a philosophy department, just out of interest?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
TimR-J
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« Reply #89 on: 15:49:14, 26-06-2007 »

As it happens, no - visual arts, art history, anthropology and variants thereof. (This was Goldsmiths after all.)
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