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eruanto
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« Reply #1095 on: 22:35:01, 30-08-2007 » |
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Songs by Duparc, Hahn and Fauré: Véronique Gens and Susan Manoff.
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Daniel
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« Reply #1096 on: 22:38:35, 30-08-2007 » |
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Fauré Nocturnes played by Jean Martin (Naxos)
An extraordinary sequence of pieces to listen to because they span such a large amount of time, the first was written in about 1875 and the last in 1921.
In the earlier ones you can hear the influence of Schumann, Chopin, Liszt and even Schubert but by the last ones the music has evolved to far more Faure-esque territory which is a great place to be. In the end I love the way he utters dark thoughts in such a recherché language. I find them incredibly inventive, moving pieces.
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eruanto
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« Reply #1097 on: 22:40:06, 30-08-2007 » |
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Ooo, lovely, Daniel. They're very hard pieces to get to grips with structurally (as a player, at least). But just right for this time of night.  |
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ahinton
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« Reply #1098 on: 22:41:52, 30-08-2007 » |
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Pettersson, Symfoni nr. 9 - Göteborgssymfonikernas / Comissiona (Philips)
If ever I can emerge from that unscathed (not an especially likely prospect), I may post again...
Best,
Alistair
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #1099 on: 22:45:41, 30-08-2007 » |
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That Craft Agon was in the haul of goodies I purchased at Gramex last week, r. I'm finding it very hard to pin down what exactly about it I don't like (and I do mean the performance, not the work, which is another of my top-line Stravinskys), apart from the fact that it's very rushed in places, which would make it undanceable, and thus almost certainly contrary to the composer's intentions. There's a very unexpected (but interesting) performance by Mravinsky and the Leningrad Phil which you'll have to hear sometime.
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richard barrett
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« Reply #1100 on: 22:55:49, 30-08-2007 » |
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Pettersson, Symfoni nr. 9 I don't know that one, but I'd guess it's rather grim. I'm finding it very hard to pin down what exactly about it I don't like (and I do mean the performance, not the work, which is another of my top-line Stravinskys), apart from the fact that it's very rushed in places, which would make it undanceable I don't have that problem with it (what does "undanceable" really mean anyway? many would say that Cage's music for Merce Cunningham is undanceable at any tempo!), but if you were to ask me to guess what your problem with it would be I'd probably say it was something to do with the very artificial balance, though these Craft recordings often sound like they're trying to be digitally-updated versions of Stravinsky's own in that regard, so where does that leave the question of the composer's intentions... actually, come to think of it, though, the only recordings I have of Agon are Craft and Stravinsky so I don't really have a proper comparison. I wonder why it isn't played so often. |
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Daniel
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« Reply #1101 on: 23:22:08, 30-08-2007 » |
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But just right for this time of night. Quite right eruanto, but actually they've been on and off since this morning and have sort of formed a backbone of my day. They seem right pretty much any time. |
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #1102 on: 00:47:11, 31-08-2007 » |
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(what does "undanceable" really mean anyway? ),
I can remember seeing the choreography vaguely, r, and I'd suggest that the tempi Craft choses would be too fast for the dancers, however skilled, to execute most of the moves properly: from my limited experience as a dancer, I can confirm that well-choreographed steps tend only to work within a fairly narrow parameter of speed variation. Since Stravinsky wrote in very close collaboration with Balanchine, specifically for his steps, then this surely gives an indication of the speeds he had in mind. Dance speed and concert speed are often different things, but where a ballet score is written as part and parcel of the creative act, then to depart from its intentions markedly is a misrepresentation, to my mind. (It's one of the reasons why so many musicals run on click-tracks nowadays: there's nothing worse than a headstrong MD who decides for whatever devilment that he wants to test just how much the cast will stick with him by setting wayward tempi which are just impractical for performance reasons, as I'm very well aware. Two well-known actors hit the headlines in the 70s and 80s respectively by stopping mid-number, walking to the footlights and swearing at their respective conductors because they felt that they were miles away from the rehearsed speed.) I'm not so worried by the recorded balance, for once, though I suspect in live performance it would be a nightmare without some judicious sound reinforcement anyway. I'm pretty sure that there was a Decca Digital LP - London Sinfonietta/ (probably) Atherton, which struck me as very good at the time. though it's yonks since I heard it, and it won't be easy to reach in the stores... |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #1103 on: 01:16:10, 31-08-2007 » |
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Very interesting, Ron. I don't have my copy of the Stravinsky version at home at the moment - is it so much slower than Craft?
Also: the music was first performed in concert (with Craft conducting) several months before the ballet premiere. Whather that has any bearing on the matter I wouldn't know, especially since ballet isn't an interest of mine and I tend (wrongly, I know) not really to think of Stravinsky's ballet music in terms of choreography. Is there maybe a case for treating these works outside the theatre as having their own life (and therefore a wider range of possible tempi)?
As for balance, I'm inclined (not having heard it in live performance) to trust Igor even with the more outlandish instrumental combinations in the piece. The only thing I really don't like about it is that the orchestration tends to get more "ordinary" as it goes on (and as textural invention gives way to stricter compositional forms). In its way, the soundworld of the first half is just as unusual as that of Les Noces, making most of his other late work (with the exception perhaps of the Variations) sound to my ears a bit colourless in comparison, as indeed do many of the pieces of his preceding phase.
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« Last Edit: 01:52:01, 31-08-2007 by richard barrett »
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ahinton
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« Reply #1104 on: 06:58:19, 31-08-2007 » |
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Pettersson, Symfoni nr. 9 I don't know that one, but I'd guess it's rather grim. More than any of the others, in some ways, I suppose - at least until it's about to end - and, like some of the others, it's in one long single movement. Out of interest, which of the Pettersson symphoies DO you know? For your interest, I'll PM you a quote from a reviewer who conducted a survey of the lot a few months back... Best, Alistair |
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #1105 on: 10:12:54, 31-08-2007 » |
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Here we go, r
I.S. R.C.
Pas de quatre 01:48 01:38
Double Pas de quatre 01:38 01:24
Triple Pas de quatre 01:10 01:04
Prelude 00:50 00:44
Sarabande Step 01:19 01:11
Gaillarde 01:18 01:12
Coda 01:27 01:20
Interlude 00:49 00:44
Bransle simple 00:57 00:54
Bransle gay 00:53 00:46
Bransle Double 01:31 01:22
Interlude 00:51 00:44
Pas de deux 04:13 03:41
Coda 01:41 01:30
Four Duos 00:33 00:30
Four Trios 02:28 02:11
I hadn't compared the two up till now, except in my memory, but as you can see, there's absolutely no doubt that Craft is pushing on all the time. Incidentally, a further comment of the importance of dance to the concept of the piece is revealed by the movements' titles: virtually every one specifically refers to ballet (or at least dance) genres. I'd also like to mention that that this piece seems to have had a huge influence upon Tippett, not least in the effect it seems to have had on his sound world in the gear-change between The Midsummer Marriage and King Priam.
(Incidentally, the Mravinsky, which doesn't give individual bandings, runs to 23:38 in total: the Craft is 20:56. The Stravinsky doesn't give an overall timing, but I think I'm right in saying that it adds up to 23:11. The Mravinsky was recorded in 1968, so he may well have prerpared the piece with reference to the Stravinsky recording)
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time_is_now
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« Reply #1106 on: 10:24:48, 31-08-2007 » |
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Gosh! I didn't realise Barrington-Coupe had ever speeded up the tempos of the original to quite that extent, Ron.
I don't know Craft's recording, so can't really comment, but re Agon in live performance, I've only heard it once, conducted by Oliver Knussen, and when I commented to someone afterwards that the ensemble had sounded very messy I was told that quite the opposite, it was a considerable achievement to have got it as close as it had been given the physical distance between the instruments a lot of the time (this was in the Albert Hall at the Proms, incidentally - did you hear that performance, Ron? 2003 I think).
There's documentary evidence for the influence of Agon on Tippett's works of the early 60s, Ron, though I can't quite remember the source. Maybe one of the essays in Moving into Aquarius, even? That piece was also the single most influential piece on early Birtwistle (and the aftershock can be heard at least as far as Tragoedia).
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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richard barrett
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« Reply #1107 on: 10:31:30, 31-08-2007 » |
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I would have to admit that's pretty convincing evidence, Ron. However, a nice modern recording with realistic speeds (and balances?) would be very welcome. Alistair, I have to admit I don't remember which of Pettersson's symphonies I've heard; none in the last fifteen years or more, that's for sure. Time that was put right, probably. this was in the Albert Hall at the Proms The prosecution rests. |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #1108 on: 10:34:37, 31-08-2007 » |
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this was in the Albert Hall at the Proms The prosecution rests. I was trying to slip that in as quietly as possible, Richard.  |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #1109 on: 10:36:06, 31-08-2007 » |
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2003 was a nomad year for me, t_i_n: I didn't hear many of the Proms at all, and I'm sure I'd have remembered that one if I had. I'm sure that the RAH would have made it a complete nightmare; not the right sonics at all; the confined spaces of an orchestra pit would no doubt help musicians considerably in such a piece.
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