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Author Topic: Mahler - Let's talk Mahler  (Read 13875 times)
Tam Pollard
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« Reply #210 on: 17:11:05, 13-05-2007 »

Opilec, it wasn't Kozena (though she'd have been preferable to who we did have, so I'd be very interested to hear that). Kozena had been at the festival the previous year when she did Clemeza with Mackerras as well as a solo recital at the Queen's Hall.

Actually, we got Lisa Milne who while not bad, was not the best I've heard. But I'm notoriously fuss about this part.
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Stanley Stewart
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« Reply #211 on: 13:18:25, 14-05-2007 »

    I've just been listening to a searing performance of Mahler 9 by the BPO, Claudio Abbado, as recommended in last Saturday''s "Building a Library".

I only left my chair to collect a package from the postie which, fortuitously, turned out to be the DVD of Mahler 2, performed by Staatskapelle Berlin, Pierre Boulez, on 26 March 2005.   Soloists Diana Damrau and Petra Lang with the choir der Deutschen Staatsoper Berlin.  A highly promising treat which must wait until the memory of symphony No 9 subsides.

Wolfgang Stahr's notes refer to the performance as a "Homage to Pierre Boulez" to celebrate his 80th birthday and how the admiration of the audience that had come to celebrate his birthday knew no bounds.       "It is difficult to regard Pierre Boulez as an 'old man'," wrote Wolfgang Schreiber in the Suddeutsche Zeitung.       "Anyone seeing him walk to the podium with his rapid, sprightly steps and noting not only his physical and emotional commitment to the music but the alertness with which he follows an extremely complex score and his ability to communicate the music's structures and his own wishes to a body of players through the power of suggestion alone would think that this amazing man was an eternally youthful sixty-year old".......

Boulez himself elegantly and wittily refutes the persistent reproach that he is above all a cool intellectual and a sober analyst:   "Analysis is merely a preliminary stage, a preparation," he explains.  "An interpretation is not a demonstration.   I don't demonstrate vacuum cleaners.  You first have to have clear ideas.   After that you can be spontaneous.   True spontaneity follows on from analysis.".........

Herr Stahr continues,  In answer to the provocative question whether one has to be eighty to understand Mahler, Boulez replies:  "I conducted a lot of Mahler forty years ago in London as principal conductor of the BBC Symphony Orchestra - but not in Germany.    For my own part, I discovered Mahler's music in 1958 - through his songs.   Out of consideration for the voice, Mahler's orchestration is far lighter and more sophisticated in his songs than it is in his symphonies."        Boulez sees Mahler the symphonist as a figure caught between two eras, a subversive with reverentially conservative ambitions.   Writing in the wake of Berlioz and Wagner, Mahler expanded the traditional form of the symphony and turned it into a kind of "theatre of the mind", a novel-like narrative, while nonetheless sticking unwaverlingly to the ideal of greatness and wholeness - in this regard he was also acting in conscious opposition to the morbidezza of the end of the 19th century.   "For me, Mahler's music is closely bound up with that of Alban Berg," admits Boulez,  "there's the same feeling in both, the only difference being that Berg used a new vocabulary, whereas we can also listen to Mahler with the ears of the 19th century without feeling unduly disturbed.   I think that Mahler tried to create a unity where none existed any longer."

This sense of a creative contradiction is further reflected in the tortuous compositional history of the Second Symphony, with its frequent changes of direction.............."

Time to think-on as I do some gardening.

The DVD is coded Region O, and I got my copy from the river, over the pond, for 33 US dollars, including shipping.  EuroArts  2054418
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Bryn
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« Reply #212 on: 23:53:29, 18-05-2007 »

Fortuitous that Boulez and Mahler should come up again, (I've been listening to those same two recordings recently). My bone of contention, however, is Boulez's attitude towards the 10th. He seems happy to conduct the questionably edited version of the first movement on its own, but turns his nose up at performing versions of the sketches for the whole work. It can't be that he has some fundamental objection to the making of performing versions of incomplete scores, for he himself made such an intervention re. Debussy's cycle for reciter and instrumental ensemble, "Chansons. de Bilitis", in 1954, and very good it is, (Boulez worked up a part for the celesta since it appears the composer had improvised the part when it was first performed). So, what is it that Boulez objects to? If he has problems with the versions made by Cooke (and the Matthews pair), then there are several others around, and he is quite capable of making his own performing version, if none of the current ones suit him. Even if he really must only do the first movement, why the dodgy edition cooked up by Krenek, Schalk and Berg. Surely Cooke's treatment of the opening Adagio is far superior to what Krenek and co. offered us? Gielen has seen the light, so why not Boulez?
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Tam Pollard
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« Reply #213 on: 00:39:16, 19-05-2007 »

I think Boulez (and, for that matter, many other great Mahler interpreters - the list of those who do play a completion of the completed 10th is shorter and, frankly, less illustrious, than those who don't) is quite correct. I've got 4 different recordings of the Cooke edition, and one of the Wheeler and none of them has convinced me of the merits of the endeavour. For me, Mahler's particular genius was for orchestration, so to try and orchestra his work is, somewhat futile. The results of these completions never sound, to me, at any rate, like genuine Mahler. Of course, I appreciate the argument (and Cooke himself admitted he wasn't capable, or trying to, recreate Mahler), that this is merely a means of making the sketches performable by an orchestra, but that only underscores my objection - that Mahler's great skill lay in that realisation.

But then, as a general rule, I'm no big fan of completions anyway and find them to be, at best, interesting curiousities.
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Bryn
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« Reply #214 on: 05:40:11, 19-05-2007 »

Sorry Tam, but where Gielen is concerned, you are dealing with someone who is regarded by many as among the absolute cream of Mahler conductors. Now, how about the question of the Krenek (et al) version of the Adagio? In what way is that more representative of Mahler's intentions for the first movement than that edited by Cooke (et al)? I can just about go along with a conductor choosing not to perform anything from the work as a matter of principle, but to go ahead and play the Krenek (el al) edition of the Adagio after having argued for the 'unMahlerian' nature of Cooke (et al)'s performing version of the sketches for the other movements, seems like pedal self-mutilation by firearm. If nothing else, Cooke sorted out many of the errors in the Krenek (et al) edition of the Adagio, did he not?

Come to think of it, another considerable Mahlerian won over eventually was Inbal. I think it's about time I investigated his survey of the symphonies.
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Tam Pollard
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« Reply #215 on: 12:59:01, 19-05-2007 »

Bryn, I wasn't meaning to denigrate Gielen (I haven't got round to hearing his Mahler recordings, so I can't comment one way or the other). I simply meant that, taken as a whole, the list of conductors who don't (or didn't) play the completions was more impressive: Bernstein, Walter, Barbirolli, Haitink, Solti, Abbado, Tennstedt (just off the top of my head).
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tonybob
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« Reply #216 on: 15:30:34, 19-05-2007 »

I simply meant that, taken as a whole, the list of conductors who don't (or didn't) play the completions was more impressive: Bernstein, Walter, Barbirolli, Haitink, Solti, Abbado, Tennstedt (just off the top of my head).
but they were/are so wrong not to do so! (imho)
Come to think of it, another considerable Mahlerian won over eventually was Inbal. I think it's about time I investigated his survey of the symphonies.

they are splendid bryn. not particularly well played, but well interpreted and recorded. you can get them on Brilliant, which is a must.
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sososo s & i.
Stanley Stewart
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Well...it was 1935


« Reply #217 on: 15:36:28, 19-05-2007 »

Further to my posting, #228, enthusiasts of Zinman/Zurich Tonhalle Orch, may be interested to know that their CD recordings of Mahler Symphonies 1 and 2 are also available from the river, over the Pond, for a joint offer price of 37.45 US dollars, incl shipping.
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Bryn
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« Reply #218 on: 18:05:41, 19-05-2007 »



they are splendid bryn. not particularly well played, but well interpreted and recorded. you can get them on Brilliant, which is a must.

I ordered an "as new" set via Amazon Marketplace last night, tb.
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tonybob
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« Reply #219 on: 18:23:35, 19-05-2007 »

ha! surprise surprise...
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sososo s & i.
Stevo
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« Reply #220 on: 22:17:28, 19-05-2007 »

I simply meant that, taken as a whole, the list of conductors who don't (or didn't) play the completions was more impressive: Bernstein, Walter, Barbirolli, Haitink, Solti, Abbado, Tennstedt (just off the top of my head).
but they were/are so wrong not to do so! (imho)
It's an odd way to put it, 'wrong' not to perform a work. I'd say that many of them (Bernstein especially) were more interested in exploring the completed works of other composers...

To use your own word, I feel it is 'wrong' to scrape around at the thinner end of famous composers' repertoire when there are plenty of completed works going unperformed.
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tonybob
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« Reply #221 on: 22:22:48, 19-05-2007 »

how is cookes edition of Mahlers 10th at the thinner end of the repertoire??
how??
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sososo s & i.
roslynmuse
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« Reply #222 on: 10:24:26, 20-05-2007 »

I got to know Cooke's No 10 thro' Rattle's Bournemouth recording; I was still at school and perhaps a more naive (innocent) listener then than now, but it immediately - on its own terms - captured my imagination as a profoundly moving work. I then heard Rattle and the CBSO at the 1983 Edinburgh Festival and was again bowled over by it. As time has gone on, I have come to recognise the occasional moments of thinness (particularly in the final movement) in the realisation, but I really could not be without it - it wipes me out whenever I hear it. Flawed? Yes, but there are few works that are not; and, as Rattle said in the original notes, there's more Mahler in it than there is Mozart in the Requiem...
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Stevo
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« Reply #223 on: 20:44:12, 20-05-2007 »

how is cookes edition of Mahlers 10th at the thinner end of the repertoire??
how??
It is a sketch, elaborated by a second party, assisted by others. Cooke and others have provided 'performing versions' of it.


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tonybob
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« Reply #224 on: 20:45:19, 20-05-2007 »

so is the Mozart requiem.
that doesn't answer the question *at all*.
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sososo s & i.
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