|
ahinton
|
 |
« Reply #150 on: 17:40:59, 04-07-2007 » |
|
Why? Are you currently attending a public music performance?(!)... Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
A
|
|
« Reply #151 on: 19:57:22, 04-07-2007 » |
|
Just thought I would remind anyone who's around what the thread is supposed to be about... but carry on if you like !
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Well, there you are.
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
Guest
|
|
« Reply #152 on: 20:44:05, 04-07-2007 » |
|
If people don't want my thoughts on KSS, then don't throw him into the conversation. On the other hand, I don't see why an outright dismissal of him is not OK when a similar opinion towards the Spice Girls is.
So was the comparison with diarrhoea your thoughts? (You said you were just being facetious.) Does it count as an outright dismissal? Is it a musicological term with which (like most others) I'm not conversant? I'm not aware of having expressed an opinion on the Spice Girls. I do however have several Sorabji CDs in my collection, and none of theirs, which I suspect is true of you also. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
time_is_now
|
|
« Reply #153 on: 20:46:55, 04-07-2007 » |
|
I'm not aware of having expressed an opinion on the Spice Girls. I do however have several Sorabji CDs in my collection, and none of theirs, which I suspect is true of you also. I don't have either. But I do have an S Club 7 CD, if that counts. (I bought it at the same time as Dallapiccola's Il Prigioniero and got a very odd look from an HMV sales assistant.) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
|
|
|
|
increpatio
|
|
« Reply #154 on: 20:54:10, 04-07-2007 » |
|
Ian; congratulations on the smoking! And what of everyone else's progress? - nothing spectacular, but give me that over the ultra-pretentious stuff you get either from Lawrence Kramer and other neo-aesthetes on one hand, or Sorabji hagiographers on the other.
I said this elsewhere, but I'm going to repeat it here out of its slight relevance; I personally am very much able to stomach Sorabji's writing style, but I find van Dieren absolutely intolerable; in his description of Busoni as somebody inaccessible to any but the most dedicated of listeners &c., of being infinitely more versatile than the comparatively monostylistic Debussy &c.. What TOSH! He is so much (not all, but...*so* much) hot air. (All the same, some of his music is quite pleasant). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #155 on: 20:58:58, 04-07-2007 » |
|
If people don't want my thoughts on KSS, then don't throw him into the conversation. On the other hand, I don't see why an outright dismissal of him is not OK when a similar opinion towards the Spice Girls is.
So was the comparison with diarrhoea your thoughts? (You said you were just being facetious.) Does it count as an outright dismissal? Is it a musicological term with which (like most others) I'm not conversant? The term diarrhoea was first evoked by Alistair to describe someone's writing (I'm not necessarily in disagreement in terms of the implied value judgement, though in this case it may not be the most appropriate metaphor). I'm not aware of having expressed an opinion on the Spice Girls. I do however have several Sorabji CDs in my collection, and none of theirs, which I suspect is true of you also. That is true - opinions have been expressed, including by Alistair, on the Spice Girls, though. Fine, I have no problem with him dismissing them totally, nor if he or anyone else wishes to dismiss music I admire or love greatly (I might rise to its defence, though). But in such a context, I reserve the right to be allowed to express negative opinions as well - there's no reason why Sorabji should be more 'protected' than the Spice Girls. As mentioned on the r.m.c.r. thread, it should be borne in mind that Sorabji's own dismissals of others make just about anything on this or that board pale into insignificance. I don't have anything of S Club 7, but I do have Jo O'Meara's solo album (actually ordered it when I felt a bit sorry for her being made a sacrificial scapegoat by the tabloid press suddenly pretending to have got concerned about racial issues). It's crap. And today just eight cigarettes have been smoked so far over the course of 14 hours. But I'm now going to go outside and have the ninth. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #156 on: 21:00:55, 04-07-2007 » |
|
I'm not aware of having expressed an opinion on the Spice Girls. I do however have several Sorabji CDs in my collection, and none of theirs, which I suspect is true of you also. I don't have either. But I do have an S Club 7 CD, if that counts. (I bought it at the same time as Dallapiccola's Il Prigioniero and got a very odd look from an HMV sales assistant.) I once remember buying LPs of Brahms and the Sex Pistols at the same time in Hartlepool - you can imagine how that got some rather strange looks as well. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
oliver sudden
|
|
« Reply #157 on: 21:12:16, 04-07-2007 » |
|
buying LPs of Brahms and the Sex Pistols at the same time in Hartlepool  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ahinton
|
|
« Reply #158 on: 21:30:15, 04-07-2007 » |
|
If people don't want my thoughts on KSS, then don't throw him into the conversation. On the other hand, I don't see why an outright dismissal of him is not OK when a similar opinion towards the Spice Girls is.
So was the comparison with diarrhoea your thoughts? (You said you were just being facetious.) Does it count as an outright dismissal? Is it a musicological term with which (like most others) I'm not conversant? The term diarrhoea was first evoked by Alistair to describe someone's writing (I'm not necessarily in disagreement in terms of the implied value judgement, though in this case it may not be the most appropriate metaphor). OK, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't - but whichever way you or anyone else looks at it, it was not used and intended specifically as an express invitation to you to use the term in the way you did - not that I'm offended by that, mind you - just noting it, that's all, as Richard has obviously also done... I'm not aware of having expressed an opinion on the Spice Girls. I do however have several Sorabji CDs in my collection, and none of theirs, which I suspect is true of you also. That is true - opinions have been expressed, including by Alistair, on the Spice Girls, though. Fine, I have no problem with him dismissing them totally, nor if he or anyone else wishes to dismiss music I admire or love greatly (I might rise to its defence, though). But in such a context, I reserve the right to be allowed to express negative opinions as well - there's no reason why Sorabji should be more 'protected' than the Spice Girls. As mentioned on the r.m.c.r. thread, it should be borne in mind that Sorabji's own dismissals of others make just about anything on this or that board pale into insignificance. For the record (and to correct any misapprehensions that I might have been careless enough to create), I'm not sufficiently interested in the output of the Spice Girls to have or express an opinion on their work beyond suggesting that it is arguably not on the highest level of artistic merit (which is hardly surprising, since it is surely not intended to be, or to persuade anyone else that it is or should be considered to be, on such a level in the first place). Despite my rôle vis-ŕ-vis his work, I have no specific interest in "protecting" Sorabji, since he's big enough to have his work go out into the world and make its mark as it has, does and will. An intelligent appraisal of Sorabji's so-called "dismissals" should of necessity be taken together with his tributes to a wide variety of musicians including Alkan, Mahler, Busoni, Chausson, Szymanowski, Bowen and others. And today just eight cigarettes have been smoked so far over the course of 14 hours. But I'm now going to go outside and have the ninth.
Not encouraged in any way by me or by anything that I've written, I hope. Keep it up! You'll get there, I'm sure -and you are to be congratulated when you do! Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
ahinton
|
|
« Reply #159 on: 21:33:30, 04-07-2007 » |
|
I'm not aware of having expressed an opinion on the Spice Girls. I do however have several Sorabji CDs in my collection, and none of theirs, which I suspect is true of you also. I don't have either. But I do have an S Club 7 CD, if that counts. (I bought it at the same time as Dallapiccola's Il Prigioniero and got a very odd look from an HMV sales assistant.) I once remember buying LPs of Brahms and the Sex Pistols at the same time in Hartlepool - you can imagine how that got some rather strange looks as well. Depending on precisely how you may have phrased your purchase intent to the salesperson concerned, I can find it in my imaginative ability to appreciate the rationale behind those "strange looks" had the said salesperson wondered, even if only momentarily, what music "Brahms and the Sex Pistols" ever performed together... Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #160 on: 21:35:25, 04-07-2007 » |
|
An intelligent appraisal of Sorabji's so-called "dismissals" should of necessity be taken together with his tributes to a wide variety of musicians including Alkan, Mahler, Busoni, Chausson, Szymanowski, Bowen and others. My absolute last word on Sorabji - his dismissals (not just 'so-called') are on a level with his views on women, the working classes (who he said he would compare to mackerel if it wasn't an insult to mackerel), other races, and so on. Whatever our thoughts are on the importance or otherwise of his views in this respect, I feel little need to be polite or diplomatic in expressing my own views on someone of that nature. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #161 on: 21:44:22, 04-07-2007 » |
|
By the way - some may recall discussions of whether Brahms might be considered a postmodernist in another thread. If you read Robin Hartwell - 'Postmodernism and art music' in Simon Miller (ed) – The last post: Music after modernism (Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1993), you will find precisely that argument made, as I've just recently discovered. Postmodernism and postmodernity exist - the issue is whether one thinks they are a good thing or not. The revival of interest in a certain Chingford composer (whoops, said I wasn't going to mention him again) is a quintessential product of the postmodern age......  Yours in highly belligerent non-smoking mode, Ian |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
richard barrett
Guest
|
|
« Reply #162 on: 21:48:05, 04-07-2007 » |
|
An intelligent appraisal of Sorabji's so-called "dismissals" should of necessity be taken together with his tributes to a wide variety of musicians including Alkan, Mahler, Busoni, Chausson, Szymanowski, Bowen and others. My absolute last word on Sorabji - his dismissals (not just 'so-called') are on a level with his views on women, the working classes (who he said he would compare to mackerel if it wasn't an insult to mackerel), other races, and so on. Whatever our thoughts are on the importance or otherwise of his views in this respect, I feel little need to be polite or diplomatic in expressing my own views on someone of that nature. Evidently. However, we shouldn't really get too carried away with "the composer's intentions", should we? I know you've said your last word on the subject, but you've done so without pointing out where in the music it's possible to hear any reference whatever to misogyny or class hatred or racism, apart from saying you can hear it and others can't. I suppose we'll never know... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ian Pace
|
|
« Reply #163 on: 21:57:55, 04-07-2007 » |
|
Evidently. However, we shouldn't really get too carried away with "the composer's intentions", should we? I know you've said your last word on the subject, but you've done so without pointing out where in the music it's possible to hear any reference whatever to misogyny or class hatred or racism, apart from saying you can hear it and others can't.
I suppose we'll never know...
You're not going to succeed in baiting me - I have in other threads delineated some ways in which musical structures embody wider meanings (I've never said that that person's music embodies such concrete things as those you list above (I wouldn't necessarily deny it either, though), though it does spring from similar motivations), but that's clearly a level you're unprepared to engage with. I do intend to write in detail about such things in the context of you-know-how, also maybe Scriabin, Scelsi and others, but that's for a in-depth musicological article - not something that can be done justice to on a messageboard like this. Are you aware that comparable claims (for somewhat different reasons) have also been made by a number of people about Schenker? And about Ives? And Beethoven? Would you say all of these are automatically without foundation? Is there not some reason why for two centuries there have been heavily gendered interpretations of Beethoven and Schubert coming from all sorts of quarters? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 21:59:49, 04-07-2007 by Ian Pace »
|
Logged
|
'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
|
|
|
|
ahinton
|
|
« Reply #164 on: 22:05:41, 04-07-2007 » |
|
An intelligent appraisal of Sorabji's so-called "dismissals" should of necessity be taken together with his tributes to a wide variety of musicians including Alkan, Mahler, Busoni, Chausson, Szymanowski, Bowen and others. My absolute last word on Sorabji - his dismissals (not just 'so-called') are on a level with his views on women, the working classes (who he said he would compare to mackerel if it wasn't an insult to mackerel), other races, and so on. Whatever our thoughts are on the importance or otherwise of his views in this respect, I feel little need to be polite or diplomatic in expressing my own views on someone of that nature. I'm not asking you to be polite or impolite or even to mention Sorabji at all (though if the above really does turn out to amount to your "last word" on him, I will proffer to you even heartier congratulations on the self-control that you will thereby have exercised, which will surely have been infinitely greater even than that which brings you to the status of fully-paid-up member of the no-smoking society). What you have said about his music, however, remains strictly in the arena of personal opinion rather than anything that you have yet managed successfully to define as possessing the same or similar repellent qualities to those that you find in what you know of his persona. Again, I repeat my remarks about those composers upon whom he heaped unstinting praise, despite their scant representation in the public performance arena in Britain at the time he wrote as he did of them. Just in the interests of "balancing" things, you understand... Best, Alistair |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
