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richard barrett
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« Reply #165 on: 22:12:34, 04-07-2007 » |
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You're not going to succeed in baiting me I'm not trying to bait you. I'm just struggling to see in your arguments the consistency you seem to demand from others. I've never said that that person's music embodies such concrete things as those you list above (I wouldn't necessarily deny it either, though) So do you assert it, or do you deny it?  but that's clearly a level you're unprepared to engage with Clearly. Are you aware that comparable claims (for somewhat different reasons) have also been made by a number of people about Schenker? No. (I'm not entirely sure which claims you mean, but no.) And about Ives? No. And Beethoven? No. Is there not some reason why for two centuries there have been heavily gendered interpretations of Beethoven and Schubert coming from all sorts of quarters?
What is a "heavily gendered interpretation"? |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #166 on: 22:15:33, 04-07-2007 » |
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There's something about cult followers and the internet - they patrol many corners ferociously attending to any dissenting opinions, rather like hard-line Zionists. Fin-de-siécle aestheticism, at least in some of its manifestations (including cultural products) is a very sinister movement indeed (give me Pentacostal Christians instead any day). I just hope neither Alistair or Richard get into Scientology or join the Moonies...  |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #167 on: 22:18:27, 04-07-2007 » |
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What is a "heavily gendered interpretation"?
Try looking up Feminism on Grove Online. I don't subscribe to a lot of the assumptions that underlie Anglo-American feminist musicology, but nor do I think they can be brushed away. Are you aware that comparable claims (for somewhat different reasons) have also been made by a number of people about Schenker? No. (I'm not entirely sure which claims you mean, but no.) About Schenker's musicological ideas constituting something akin to a form of ultra-right wing German nationalism verging on Nazism, notwithstanding the fact that he was Jewish. I don't agree with those claims in their entirety, though I do see certainly how Schenker's wider ideas were embodied in his analyses. |
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« Last Edit: 22:22:04, 04-07-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #168 on: 22:21:31, 04-07-2007 » |
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By the way - some may recall discussions of whether Brahms might be considered a postmodernist in another thread.
Yes, Ian, I rather fear that some of us with longer than usual (or perhaps worthwhile) memories may well find ourselves sadly unable not to do just that... Postmodernism and postmodernity exist
In the minds of those for whom such a category can be coerced into having anything approching meaning - or rather something that can be paraded to look like meaning - one may indeed perhaps be forgiven for supposing that it does. the issue is whether one thinks they are a good thing or not.
That is a different issue from the one above, but not one to be ignored, certainly. The revival of interest in a certain Chingford composer (whoops, said I wasn't going to mention him again)
No one believed you there, Ian - and I'm sure you know that; I don't think that even Mr Pace believed you... is a quintessential product of the postmodern age...... Those who cannot bring themselves to believe in the notion of postmodernism will not see it that way, but what really fascinates me here is your use in this context of the term "quintessential" - one which has long since been pressed into service (for whatever reason or none) to describe certain things that are specifically "English" (as illustrated, for example, in some of the outpourings of that most rabid of Marxist-Leninist jounrals Country Life). Yours in highly belligerent non-smoking mode,
I never thought that I'd write this (and I do so in any case very much against my better judgement - yes, Ian, I do have such), but maybe your self-confessedly enhanced belligerence that results from sterling efforts to give up smoking has, after all, such a downside that you might well consider resuming your weeding activities (by which I do not mean your either becoming an even more Mauvais Jardinier or pulling the extraneous plant life from Le Jardin Parfumé)... Best, Alistair |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #169 on: 22:26:33, 04-07-2007 » |
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Postmodernism and postmodernity exist
In the minds of those for whom such a category can be coerced into having anything approching meaning - or rather something that can be paraded to look like meaning - one may indeed perhaps be forgiven for supposing that it does. Well, would you then say that every single philosopher, cultural theorist, literary critic, art historian, musicologist, political analyst who has written about postmodernism (and there are a very great many) are talking about something entirely meaningless, then? And every one of them are just parading something 'to look like meaning'? That would be a very extravagant claim to make. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #170 on: 22:30:12, 04-07-2007 » |
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There's something about cult followers and the internet - they patrol many corners ferociously attending to any dissenting opinions, rather like hard-line Zionists. Fin-de-siécle aestheticism, at least in some of its manifestations (including cultural products) is a very sinister movement indeed (give me Pentacostal Christians instead any day).
I really do think that someone should record for posterity Ian's desire to be given some Pentecostal Christians. I don't happen to have any lurking in my wine cellar or even in my servants' quarters (or at least not last time I looked), so I must apologise profusely for being hopelessly unable personally to oblige here. I just hope neither Alistair or Richard get into Scientology or join the Moonies... I can't speak for Richard here (or rather I probably can but I won't, since it's not my place to do so), but my answer to that has to be a kind of repetition of something I wrote earlier today in my reply to what you described as a "debate" on rmcr, in the sense that I'm more likely to become a minimalist. That said, your remark here seems especially inappropriate in respect of someone who wouldn't even join a political party or a religious denomination. Ah, well - never mind... Best, Alistair |
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ahinton
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« Reply #171 on: 22:33:35, 04-07-2007 » |
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What is a "heavily gendered interpretation"?
Try looking up Feminism on Grove Online. Now there's another Paceism with which I've become increasingly familiar; "go and look it up /read about it" as thoug the addressee has never even thought to do anything of the sort until udged to do so by Dr Pace... I don't subscribe to a lot of the assumptions that underlie Anglo-American feminist musicology, but nor do I think they can be brushed away.
I for one am mightily glad that you don't, but the only reason for not "brushing them away" is surely to expose them for what they are... Best, Alistair |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #172 on: 22:39:48, 04-07-2007 » |
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Now there's another Paceism with which I've become increasingly familiar; "go and look it up /read about it" as thoug the addressee has never even thought to do anything of the sort until udged to do so by Dr Pace... Because in the end it does get rather tedious always having to spell out some rather elementary terms. Anyhow, just to save some people some effort, you'll find a whole range of discourse in the nineteenth and twentieth century arguing that Beethoven represents a masculine pole of music, Schubert a more feminine one. And similarly for different themes in sonata movements. Those are 'heavily gendered interpretations' - I don't think they are entirely arbitrary, even if they are highly reductive. I don't subscribe to a lot of the assumptions that underlie Anglo-American feminist musicology, but nor do I think they can be brushed away.
I for one am mightily glad that you don't, but the only reason for not "brushing them away" is surely to expose them for what they are... Well, despite being a staunch critic in many ways of some such work, I wouldn't take such a totally dismissive view towards the whole project myself without really knowing it well (forcing myself to read it in detail also forced a rethinking of various earlier assumptions, and I think that's no bad thing). How much have you read of McClary, Abbate, Citron, Cuzick, and the many others? |
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« Last Edit: 22:44:54, 04-07-2007 by Ian Pace »
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #173 on: 22:40:55, 04-07-2007 » |
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Postmodernism and postmodernity exist
In the minds of those for whom such a category can be coerced into having anything approching meaning - or rather something that can be paraded to look like meaning - one may indeed perhaps be forgiven for supposing that it does. Well, would you then say that every single philosopher, cultural theorist, literary critic, art historian, musicologist, political analyst who has written about postmodernism (and there are a very great many) are talking about something entirely meaningless, then? And every one of them are just parading something 'to look like meaning'? That would be a very extravagant claim to make. I would indeed be wary of doing so drastic a thing and am accordingly aware that it would, as you quite rightly observe, be "a very extravagant claim to make "(or at least it might seem to be one and/or risk looking like one to quite a few people who have read stuff about the subject), but those facts do not stop me from wondering; you have yourself had good reason to upbraid certain kinds of musicologist for bringing into the arena suspect writings, poorly phrased, ill-researched and heavily contrived so, even though you would obviously disagree with my doubts about the validity of postmodernism as a valid term for a valid entity, you can surely at least recognise something of the nature and origin of my suspicions anent "postmodernism" as a concept, along the lines that it might, like so much other spurious academic writing parading as genuine scholarship, have been contrived for the principal benefit of the contrivers... Best, Alistair |
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #174 on: 22:44:15, 04-07-2007 » |
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you have yourself had good reason to upbraid certain kinds of musicologist for bringing into the arena suspect writings, poorly phrased, ill-researched and heavily contrived so, even though you would obviously disagree with my doubts about the validity of postmodernism as a valid term for a valid entity, you can surely at least recognise something of the nature and origin of my suspicions anent "postmodernism" as a concept, along the lines that it might, like so much other spurious academic writing parading as genuine scholarship, have been contrived for the principal benefit of the contrivers... No more so necessarily than, say, talking about a Baroque period in music. Writing on postmodernism and postmodernity (from all shades of opinions, including those massively critical of postmodernist music/art/culture) of course is of highly varying quality, but that could equally be said about writing on Baroque music as well. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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ahinton
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« Reply #175 on: 22:47:51, 04-07-2007 » |
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Now there's another Paceism with which I've become increasingly familiar; "go and look it up /read about it" as thoug the addressee has never even thought to do anything of the sort until udged to do so by Dr Pace... Because in the end it does get rather tedious always having to spell out some rather elementary terms. Anyhow, just to save some people some effort, you'll find a whole range of discourse in the nineteenth and twentieth century arguing that Beethoven represents a masculine pole of music, Schubert a more feminine one. And similarly for different themes in sonata movements. Those are 'heavily gendered interpretations' - I don't think they are entirely arbitrary, even if they are highly reductive. I know. My feelings about these ideas are pretty much akin to those that certain kinds of genuine atheists feel when confronted with sheaves of evidence about God; it's not so much an inborn and instinctive disbelief per se - more of a feeling that it just dones't add up to make sense. I'm not even claiming that I'm right to do this; I merely observe that I cannot equate to it, for all that I have in the past made genuine efforts, out of interest, to do so. I don't subscribe to a lot of the assumptions that underlie Anglo-American feminist musicology, but nor do I think they can be brushed away.
I for one am mightily glad that you don't, but the only reason for not "brushing them away" is surely to expose them for what they are... Well, despite being a staunch critic in many ways of some such work, I wouldn't take such a totally dismissive view towards the whole project myself without really knowing it well (forcing myself to read it in detail also forced a rethinking of various earlier assumptions, and I think that's no bad thing). How much have you read of McClary, Abbate, Citron, Cuszick, and the many others? More than enough to make me keel over with a mixture of sheer boredom, incredulity, superficial amusement and - well, almost a desire to go and have a fag (no, I made that last bit up!). I know, Ian, I am not even a lost cause, since one cannot be a lost anything unless one had been found in the first place... Best, Alistair |
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martle
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« Reply #176 on: 22:49:22, 04-07-2007 » |
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Ian Hope you maintained the momentum today! I'm deeply impressed. Funnily enough, I seem to be unconsciously cutting down too, perhaps in some kind of sympathetic vibration (it's not out of conscious decision, that's for sure...).  |
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Green. Always green.
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ahinton
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« Reply #177 on: 22:50:07, 04-07-2007 » |
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CAN SOMEONE PLEASE SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES OF GIVING UP SMOKING? PLEASE!
P L E A S E . . . .
Best,
Alistair
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Ian Pace
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« Reply #178 on: 22:50:50, 04-07-2007 » |
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Ian Hope you maintained the momentum today! I'm deeply impressed. Funnily enough, I seem to be unconsciously cutting down too, perhaps in some kind of sympathetic vibration (it's not out of conscious decision, that's for sure...). Maybe it's like when two women are very close, and their menstrual cycles start to coincide?  It's all going well - only 10 ciggies today up to this point. |
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'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
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martle
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« Reply #179 on: 22:57:04, 04-07-2007 » |
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Way to go! My cycle or yours?  |
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Green. Always green.
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