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The Radio 3 Boards > General Chat > The Coffee Bar > The Pedantry Thread
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Author Topic: The Pedantry Thread  (Read 14586 times)
roslynmuse
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« Reply #420 on: 17:03:01, 06-01-2008 »
My gut feeling is that whether we are talking Symphony, Concerto, Sonata or simply Piece they are genres rather than descriptive titles. Adding the medium - Piano Concerto, Violin Sonata, even Chamber Symphony or Concerto for Orchestra - is only further defining the genre, and the addition of numbers (Five Orchestral Pieces, Chamber Symphony No 2) simply completes the process. There are works on the cusp - Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, for example (the fact that I don't need to add the composer's name perhaps points to a case for italicisation, although that logic doesn't help poor old Pelleas and Melisande); and I would tend to go with no italics for Vier Gesange, but italics for Vier Letzte Lieder (whether Strauss or RVW) and certainly italics for song and opera titles (no argument there, I suspect.)

On another pedantic tack - loth/ loath?? ('Nothing lo(a)th, he logged on...') And how do learned members pronounce the word 'wont' as in 'it was his wont to read The Pedantry Thread every morning before breakfast'?
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...trj...
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« Reply #421 on: 17:20:41, 06-01-2008 »
I would always italicise the Bartók (unless I were being lazy). Likewise Symphonies of Wind Instruments and Symphonie pour un homme seul. Generally, before the C20 it's relatively easy to distinguish titles from genre indications; after that it gets increasingly difficult. A similar problem pertains to language: it would be unusual to refer to Stockhausen's Klavierstücke as his Piano Pieces (and thus I suppose they warrant italics). And as for including performance forces as part of a title (whether italicised or not), it's a minefield (try it with late Feldman). Referring to Bartók's Music is clearly ridiculous...

Quote
italics for song and opera titles (no argument there, I suspect.)

Here I'd disagree, I'm afraid - these I would always write as roman, inside inverted commas (being sections of works rather than the complete work); by analogy to chapters in books.
« Last Edit: 17:22:18, 06-01-2008 by ...trj... » Logged
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #422 on: 17:23:18, 06-01-2008 »
You mean song titles (if part of a set)?

Surely not opera titles?
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...trj...
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« Reply #423 on: 17:28:54, 06-01-2008 »
Indeed I do!

(Misread your "opera titles" for something like "arias within operas"  Embarrassed)
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martle
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« Reply #424 on: 19:10:09, 06-01-2008 »
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time_is_now
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« Reply #425 on: 23:57:43, 06-01-2008 »
Quote from: Sydney Grew on 14:47:13, 06-01-2008
Our practice has been to write "Delius's 'On Hearing the First Cuckoo in Spring'" (quotation marks for a name applied to an individual work), "Liszt's Piano Sonata" (capital letters for an individual work lacking a particular name but identified by its description - such as the composer might write on its title page) and "Liszt's piano sonata" (small letters, used when we are not so much concerned with the individuality of the work, perhaps in a context where we are comparing and contrasting a number of different piano sonatas).
[...]
Our conclusion of course is that pending further clarification it will be best if we persist with our current practice.
The standard practice in English would be to use italics (but no quotation marks) for the Delius, capital initials (but no italics) for the Liszt, and, as you say, normal script for a non-specific reference to a piano sonata or sonatas. (The set of a composer's works in a given genre is probably a borderline case: 'Beethoven's piano sonatas (all 32 of them)' or 'Beethoven's Piano Sonatas'?) As ...trj... says, single songs, opera arias and other named movements get quotation marks but no italics - the same as for short stories and chapters of books (except of course for books of the Bible, which as I'm sure Mr Grew knows are only ever capitalised, nothing more.)

I don't know enough about the subtleties of German conventions over the years to comment on your example, but Schoenberg's Five Orchestral Pieces are a borderline case - I would italicise their title, regarding it as a title rather than simply a genre indication. One rationale for that might be that although 'Orchestral Piece' for Schoenberg and his pupils became a genre indication analogous to 'Symphony' or 'Piano Sonata', it could not be used unambiguously in a sentence of the type quoted above ('comparing and contrasting a number of different piano sonatas'), since 'Schoenberg's orchestral pieces' would seem to refer to more than just the pieces thus titled.

I think there's something in ...trj...'s contention that apparently genre-marking titles that don't get translated ought to be considered italicisable titles, but I don't think that takes us the whole way: it would be unusual but is not unheard of to refer to Stockhausen's Piano Piece V, and I would still italicise it if I were translating it, for the reasons given in the previous paragraph.

ros: Don't get your 'lo(a)th' question, I'm afraid. 'Wont' I pronounce the same as 'won't', both as a noun ('It was his wont') and as an adjective ('He was wont to ...').
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George Garnett
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« Reply #426 on: 00:04:08, 07-01-2008 »
Quote from: time_is_now on 23:57:43, 06-01-2008
I don't know enough about the subtleties of German conventions over the years to comment on your example, but Schoenberg's Five Orchestral Pieces are a borderline case - I would italicise their title, regarding it as a title rather than simply a genre indication.

"...is a borderline case"?
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time_is_now
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« Reply #427 on: 00:06:05, 07-01-2008 »
Quote from: George Garnett on 00:04:08, 07-01-2008
Quote from: time_is_now on 23:57:43, 06-01-2008
I don't know enough about the subtleties of German conventions over the years to comment on your example, but Schoenberg's Five Orchestral Pieces are a borderline case - I would italicise their title, regarding it as a title rather than simply a genre indication.

"...is a borderline case"?
Point taken! (Although I think you've also proved my point ...)

 Grin
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
increpatio
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« Reply #428 on: 00:13:27, 07-01-2008 »
Quote from: time_is_now on 00:06:05, 07-01-2008
Quote from: George Garnett on 00:04:08, 07-01-2008
Quote from: time_is_now on 23:57:43, 06-01-2008
I don't know enough about the subtleties of German conventions over the years to comment on your example, but Schoenberg's Five Orchestral Pieces are a borderline case - I would italicise their title, regarding it as a title rather than simply a genre indication.

"...is a borderline case"?
Point taken! (Although I think you've also proved my point ...)

 Grin
I'm okay with the singular mode myself, fwiw.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #429 on: 00:22:13, 07-01-2008 »
t_i_n - loth - as in 'Nothing loth, he...' : recently I have seen that word spelt 'loath' (or even 'loathe' which MUST be wrong!) on several occasions, including times when it must have passed through an editor's hands.

I'm bemused by the use of '...' around song titles; I have to say I find it aesthetically unpleasing and can't grasp why italics don't work equally well. The only case I can think of (but can't think of a specific example offhand) is when an aria or song has the same title as the opera or song cycle/set it comes from.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #430 on: 00:34:13, 07-01-2008 »
I've never heard this phrase 'nothing lo(a)th', ros! How remiss of me. Google yields roughly twice as many results for the version with a as for the verson without, though there are a fair number for that, too, so I'd guess they're acceptable alternatives. What does the dictionary say? I can't check right now as I'm in Spain.

The '...' option for song titles is absolutely standard. I couldn't defend it rationally - as you say, italics ought to do equally well, although I have to say I'd find them aesthetically displeasing. Each to his own, I suppose! You're right that it's helpful in distinguishing individual songs/poems from collections: e.g.

Philip Larkin's 'The Whitsun Weddings', from his collection The Whitsun Weddings

I personally also favour quotation marks to italics for titles of single paintings and sculptures, although there seem to be two schools of thought on that, and I have yielded to at least one editor's house style on the matter (whereas I'd probably kick up a fuss if someone wanted me to italicise a song or poem title).

Incidentally, talking of house style reminds me that I'd meant to say about Mr Grew's Barraqué page: I suspect the reason 'Piano Sonata' is italicised in the text but not in the work-list may be that the book has adopted as house style a convention of italicising any work title on its first occurrence, somewhat by way of cross-referencing. I have occasionally italicised titles like 'Symphony' or 'Piano Sonata' on their first occurrence in CD liner notes for the Delphian label, for this reason, although I would never do it for NMC, whose house style is slightly different.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #431 on: 00:36:17, 07-01-2008 »
Why do northern Americans persist in mispronouncing the word "wrath"? We heard it again only yesterday. There can be no excuse: it must be simple ignorance must it not.
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strinasacchi
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« Reply #432 on: 00:40:16, 07-01-2008 »
How do people from Manchester pronounce "wrath?"

(No really, I'm genuinely curious.)
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autoharp
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« Reply #433 on: 00:42:48, 07-01-2008 »
How does Jonathan Ross pronounce "wrath"?
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time_is_now
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« Reply #434 on: 00:43:16, 07-01-2008 »
Quote from: strinasacchi on 00:40:16, 07-01-2008
How do people from Manchester pronounce "wrath?"
It's not a word commonly heard there, I believe. Wink But they ought to pronounce it 'roth', the same as the rest of the country.

Why would it be any different in Manchester?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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