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Author Topic: The Pedantry Thread  (Read 14586 times)
John W
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« Reply #405 on: 19:16:06, 11-12-2007 »

Yes
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time_is_now
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« Reply #406 on: 19:17:47, 11-12-2007 »

'the French don't even have a word for 'entrepreneur''
Neither do the English.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
martle
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« Reply #407 on: 19:20:50, 11-12-2007 »

Hats off, tinners! The pedant's pedant!
 Grin
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Green. Always green.
time_is_now
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« Reply #408 on: 23:37:40, 11-12-2007 »

Well we would like to do that but certainly cannot do it until our censured message imparting to Members More on Feldman has been reinstated in its entirety.
Presumably the Member means his 'censored' message.

It may also have been 'censured', but that is surely incidental.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
oliver sudden
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« Reply #409 on: 00:31:19, 18-12-2007 »

Quote
... or maybe a foot pedal..?

Otherwise known as a pedal.  Cool
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time_is_now
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« Reply #410 on: 00:39:36, 18-12-2007 »

What a talent for perversely picking up on the parenthetic and ignoring the essential people display!
I keep wondering if the 'essential people display' is in Oxford Street. Something to do with Christmas maybe?

Also: 'Jean Barraqué's Piano Sonata' (sic)? Why the italics?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
time_is_now
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« Reply #411 on: 16:14:44, 03-01-2008 »

'known colloquially in circles of the local gentry'?
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
time_is_now
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« Reply #412 on: 17:50:14, 03-01-2008 »

Where I work is in Uxbridge, so Heathrow is a dream if I fly before or after work - half an hour by bus, costs 90p and stops right outside the music department...
I presume it's the bus, not the airport, that costs 90p and stops right outside the music department ...

No hard feelings about all those corrections yesterday, Ollie. Wink Wink Kiss
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
oliver sudden
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« Reply #413 on: 17:51:14, 03-01-2008 »

No hard feelings about all those corrections yesterday, Ollie. Wink Wink Kiss
good! ;-)
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #414 on: 10:30:41, 06-01-2008 »

Re: Handel or Bach - which is best?

Er ... better?
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
richard barrett
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« Reply #415 on: 10:35:56, 06-01-2008 »

Re: Handel or Bach - which is best?

Er ... better?

Don't blame me, it was a reference to this.
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autoharp
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« Reply #416 on: 10:43:16, 06-01-2008 »

Re: Handel or Bach - which is best?

Er ... better?

Don't blame me, it was a reference to this.

Which was a reference to

1912: Trial of criminal Harry Horowitz ("Gyp the Blood")—probably the date of sketch of Ives’s vehement parody "Gyp the Blood" or Hearst!? Which is Worst?! (mvt. ii of Set No. 2) which questions whether William Randolph Hearst exploitational news reporting isn’t also criminal.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #417 on: 14:09:19, 06-01-2008 »

Presumably the Member means his 'censored' message.

It may also have been 'censured', but that is surely incidental.

Not really Mr. Now. It was indeed our intention to write "censured." Although we are aware that censure does not of itself introduce a condition requiring reinstatement, the fault that was found with the message was sufficient to lead to its removal. In other words, the censure was what we considered out of place, and the removal while hardly to be described as incidental to the censure followed as a mere logical (or should we say "automatic") consequence thereof.

We might have used "censor" in the course of a description of the whole process, but not as a verb. While the use of "censure" (both noun and verb) and "censor" (noun) may be traced back to the time before Shakespeare, the appearance of "censor" as a verb is recent, having been first recorded in 1882. Even to-day it retains at least for us a fabricated tone and we would be reluctant to use the word as our young Member suggests.
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #418 on: 14:47:13, 06-01-2008 »

'Jean Barraqué's Piano Sonata' (sic)? Why the italics?

The Member has worried us a little on this point; we feared we might have been falling into foreign ways. Our practice has been to write "Delius's 'On Hearing the First Cuckoo in Spring'" (quotation marks for a name applied to an individual work), "Liszt's Piano Sonata" (capital letters for an individual work lacking a particular name but identified by its description - such as the composer might write on its title page) and "Liszt's piano sonata" (small letters, used when we are not so much concerned with the individuality of the work, perhaps in a context where we are comparing and contrasting a number of different piano sonatas).

Well! that agrees with neither Hart's Rules nor the printed works of Sydney Grew the Elder.

So suspecting the aforesaid foreign influence we examined this:


It does not really assist us. Five Orchestral Pieces, a descriptive title rather than a name, is printed in italics, as is the "Gurrelieder" (a name we would think) and the Chamber Symphony (descriptive again). A little lower down, though, the descriptive title of Berg's orchestral songs appears unitalicized but within quotation marks, as does that of the "Waltz Dream" (a name is it not).

More interesting perhaps to Members is the fact that the Daily Mail printed a review of Schoenberg's pieces, saying that he was a composer who "super-straussed the application of the laws of harmony." Would the Daily Mail review contemporary music to-day? Would it even review Schoenberg? Schoenberg himself amusingly describes his own intercourse with the orchestra during that 1912 London première: "Bliss, tchentlemen, nember fifffe" is according to him the sort of thing he said, which Sir Henry Wood would with the utmost delicacy quietly correct to "Please, gentlemen, number fi-eve." The whole occasion must have been fun for the orchestra!

Still seeking foreign examples we turn to a little book about Webern, where we find "Schönbergs Bläserquintett und seine Orchesterstücke op. 10 . . . und Mahlers «Klagendes Lied»." We do not see any distinction between the first two - Wind Quintet and Orchestral Pieces, yet one has italics and one not.

Let us finally return to an example in English:


It is a page from Mark Morris's book about twentieth-century composers, and there we see the Piano Sonata once italicized and once not.

Our conclusion of course is that pending further clarification it will be best if we persist with our current practice.


[Corrected "quintett" (thank you Mr. Sudden) and added Schoenberg anecdote.]
« Last Edit: 02:52:08, 07-01-2008 by Sydney Grew » Logged
oliver sudden
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« Reply #419 on: 15:55:17, 06-01-2008 »

Our practice on a forum such as this always having been to leave it as it first hits the screen unless it looks wrong we shall also persist in our current ways.

On the other hand in formal writing we do tend to stick to the rule: italics for made-up titles, none for standard genres.

The problem here being that in the case of a title such as Fünf Orchesterstücke or Kammersymphonie how is one to know which is which? Neither was a standard genre in Schoenberg's time. Both in a sense became standard genres afterwards. Is one to write Kammersymphonie for Schoenberg and Kammersymphonie for Kagel, Kammerkonzert for Berg and Kammerkonzert for Ligeti or italicise both or italicise neither?

Perhaps this is what caused the hiccup between Bläserquintett (normally with two ts we believe) and Orchesterstücke.
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