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Author Topic: The Pedantry Thread  (Read 14586 times)
Baz
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« Reply #375 on: 14:03:39, 29-11-2007 »

...P.S. I was, of course, referring to those inhabitants who - notwithstanding those who are "new" - are even "newer" to these shores than the others.


Baz
« Last Edit: 14:06:30, 29-11-2007 by Baz » Logged
thompson1780
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« Reply #376 on: 08:40:07, 30-11-2007 »

GORDON H. BENNETT! IS THAT THE TIME?

A quick investigation of the members list reveals that there is, as yet, no Member Gordon H. Bennett on the forum yet.  This leads me to believe Member Barrett has posted this in the wrong place.

Mr Logic
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Sydney Grew
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« Reply #377 on: 12:40:09, 01-12-2007 »

The appended page comes from Rhoda Broughton's delightful 1910 novel "The Devil and the Deep Sea." Upon it we read "each fresh act of compulsory turning her back upon human companionship."

We can find nothing in the grammar books that explicitly forbids a transitive gerund from taking an adjective in this way, yet for some reason which we regrettably cannot as yet make out it does not sound right.

It seems distinctly better to use either the corresponding adverb ("each fresh act of compulsorily turning her back upon human companionship") or an "of-phrase" (as it is these days termed by the best Oxford men) after the gerund ("each fresh act of compulsory turning of her back upon human companionship").

But how do these three variations sound to other Members, and why?

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increpatio
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« Reply #378 on: 12:44:05, 01-12-2007 »

The appended page comes from Rhoda Broughton's delightful 1910 novel "The Devil and the Deep Sea." Upon it we read "each fresh act of compulsory turning her back upon human companionship."

We can find nothing in the grammar books that explicitly forbids a transitive gerund from taking an adjective in this way, yet for some reason which we regrettably cannot as yet make out it does not sound right.

It seems distinctly better to use either the corresponding adverb ("each fresh act of compulsorily turning her back upon human companionship") or an "of-phrase" (as it is these days termed by the best Oxford men) after the gerund ("each fresh act of compulsory turning of her back upon human companionship").

But how do these three variations sound to other Members, and why?
Personally, I would put a 'the' before 'compulsory' in the second (that is to say, third) version.  But that's a stylistic one.  I think the first (second) is the most fetching myself.
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roslynmuse
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« Reply #379 on: 16:10:41, 01-12-2007 »

"Each fresh compulsory turn of her back..." would be my preferred paraphrase. I'd probably insert a comma after fresh, too.
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #380 on: 17:10:08, 01-12-2007 »

There's an interesting shade of meaning implied by the word 'compulsory' in this context, which would be altered by the alternative 'compulsorily', weakening the effect of the key word within the sentence, quite apart from weakening the overall rhythm, too. Whilst the adverbial modification might simply suggest that the complusion in the subject's act of turning may be of her own volition, the adjectival, as written, implies a compulsion which may well be external, and thus beyond her control completely. Its very strangeness renders it the stronger, particularly as its second syllable appears to be the climax of the whole sentence.

 The two alternatives are weaker by comparison, I feel. A slavish adherence to grammatical correctness, rather than the aim of producing clear and communicative prose, is surely one of the roads to tergid, univiting writing.

(Oh, the perils of typing at speed whilst also involved in other pursuits! However, since my accidental forms of 'turgid' and 'uninviting' have already gained immortality in the "Glossary Thread", I let them stand.)
« Last Edit: 18:19:37, 01-12-2007 by Ron Dough » Logged
time_is_now
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« Reply #381 on: 20:06:58, 03-12-2007 »

I agree with Ron, for the reasons by him given.

(I should clarify that those are not my reasons for agreeing with him.

(That's probably not a clarification really is it?))
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
increpatio
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« Reply #382 on: 10:23:22, 04-12-2007 »

I agree with Ron, for the reasons by him given.

(I should clarify that those are not my reasons for agreeing with him.

(That's probably not a clarification really is it?))

((It's a fascinating elaboration.))
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Kittybriton
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Thank you for the music ...


WWW
« Reply #383 on: 12:26:52, 04-12-2007 »

Notes the phrase for use in future presentations: "Let me elaborate fascinatingly on that..."
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Mahler10th
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Aye.


« Reply #384 on: 17:42:05, 05-12-2007 »

Yes.  I had tea with big Jean Sibelius last night.  He elaborated fascinatingly on the grey clouds of his fourth symphony and said if I didn't like Finland he would strategically place a piano on the end of my nose whilst letting loose some mythical swan.  Yes.  Fascanating chap.  Tomorrow, it's breakfast with Bruckner again.
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“To live content with small means; to seek elegance rather than luxury, and refinement rather than fashion; to be worthy, not respectable, and wealthy, not, rich; to listen to stars and birds, etc.,"
increpatio
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« Reply #385 on: 14:22:44, 08-12-2007 »

( ()  ([]

().

(non-essential content pruned)

Think you're missing something there h-h!
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Kittybriton
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Thank you for the music ...


WWW
« Reply #386 on: 15:26:02, 08-12-2007 »

( ()  ([]

().

(non-essential content pruned)

Think you're missing something there h-h!

Meanwhile, back at the University...

Code:

   
( (o)      //>>
        ):<<>>>
( (o)      \\>>
   

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Click me ->About me
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No, I'm not a complete idiot. I'm only a halfwit. In fact I'm actually a catfish.
increpatio
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« Reply #387 on: 01:35:44, 09-12-2007 »

All of which begs the question: Why were you boiling a pan of washing-up liquid in the first place? Don't they have fresh lemons in Edinburgh, even for ready money?

Is not 'begging the question', traditionally, an argumentative fallacy where one assumes what one is trying to prove?
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George Garnett
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« Reply #388 on: 09:34:52, 09-12-2007 »

All of which begs the question: Why were you boiling a pan of washing-up liquid in the first place? Don't they have fresh lemons in Edinburgh, even for ready money?

Is not 'begging the question', traditionally, an argumentative fallacy where one assumes what one is trying to prove?

Is begging the question actually a 'fallacy' though? Mathematical proofs which start with axioms and draw out their logical implications could correctly be said to be 'begging the question' (in the original sense). But we wouldn't want to say those proofs are fallacious. The fallacy, presumably, isn't to be found in the act of 'begging the question' itself but in any separate claim that one hasn't so begged it.
« Last Edit: 09:41:32, 09-12-2007 by George Garnett » Logged
time_is_now
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« Reply #389 on: 10:26:20, 09-12-2007 »

Is not 'begging the question', traditionally, an argumentative fallacy where one assumes what one is trying to prove?
Yes: rephrasable as 'an answer which leaves the question begging'.

But I find it hard (as long as the meaning is clear in context) to see a good reason not to adopt the more recent meaning of 'an answer which leads one to ask a different question'.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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