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Author Topic: Another thread on 4' 33  (Read 951 times)
Baz
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« on: 13:59:51, 06-02-2008 »

Since your example is completely silent on my system, Mr Grew, I can only assume it is a section from Mr Cage's 4' 33"....

Well Ron - what a spoilsport! You have now gone and told everybody about the TRUE intrinsic content of Cage's 4'33" (rather like an uncaring clergyman entering an infants' school and openly telling the poor kids the truth about Father Christmas just before they are due to open all their presents!).

You do not realize that for years it has been a convention to instruct successive generations of befuddled undergraduates that Cage's 4'33" embodies true substance, and now you have told the truth. In reality, it contains (deliberately so) nothing, but merely represents a bizarre experiment in uncontrolled total aleatoricism in which the composer stood aside from any responsibility and left it to poor old John Tudor to "carry the can".

And isn't it amazing how many others since then have been taken in, and hypnotized into actually believing that it represents a meaningful contribution to Western musical culture?

I'll get mi tin hat as I leave.....!

Baz Grin Grin Grin Grin
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martle
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« Reply #1 on: 14:06:33, 06-02-2008 »

That's David Tudor, Baz. Precision in historical discourse - so important, is not it?
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Green. Always green.
Baz
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« Reply #2 on: 14:14:32, 06-02-2008 »

That's David Tudor, Baz. Precision in historical discourse - so important, is not it?

Beg his pardon - David indeed! I was mentally transposing his name with David Cage's.

Baz
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time_is_now
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« Reply #3 on: 14:38:07, 06-02-2008 »

You do not realize that for years it has been a convention to instruct successive generations of befuddled undergraduates that Cage's 4'33" embodies true substance, and now you have told the truth. In reality, it contains (deliberately so) nothing, but merely represents a bizarre experiment in uncontrolled total aleatoricism in which the composer stood aside from any responsibility and left it to poor old John Tudor to "carry the can".
It's a good job you qualified as a musicologist before 4'33" was on the curriculum, Baz, because I certainly wouldn't pass that account of the piece's effect or intentions. And John or David is not the main problem. Wink
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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« Reply #4 on: 15:07:38, 06-02-2008 »

Say, is contemporary music nothing more than a religious cult? I'm curious.

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Baz
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« Reply #5 on: 15:08:06, 06-02-2008 »

You do not realize that for years it has been a convention to instruct successive generations of befuddled undergraduates that Cage's 4'33" embodies true substance, and now you have told the truth. In reality, it contains (deliberately so) nothing, but merely represents a bizarre experiment in uncontrolled total aleatoricism in which the composer stood aside from any responsibility and left it to poor old John Tudor to "carry the can".
It's a good job you qualified as a musicologist before 4'33" was on the curriculum, Baz, because I certainly wouldn't pass that account of the piece's effect or intentions. And John or David is not the main problem. Wink

"Qualified"? - how gratifying! Yes - it is packed so full of ideas that it seems churlish not to share them. So here it is, all 5.75MB of it.....

John Cage; 4' 33"

Baz

P.S. I noticed that Foyles are doing a good deal on this piece at the moment - the score (which contains mostly empty pages) is retailing at the modest sum of just over £12 each. Well within the financial reach of most students I should think.
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Baz
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« Reply #6 on: 15:10:22, 06-02-2008 »

Say, is contemporary music nothing more than a religious cult? I'm curious.



Music CD? Music? Whoever mentioned anything about "music"?

Baz  Shocked
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stuart macrae
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ascolta


« Reply #7 on: 16:25:52, 06-02-2008 »



Must you really have this pointless discussion again?
FWIW I don't think much of Cage's piece either but why bother dismissing it as 'not music' unless it really challenges you? My problem with it is simply that judged by its audible content (ie the 'ambient' sounds in (usually) a concert hall) it doesn't seem particularly interesting or coherent, and therefore I don't deem it to be worth listening to. That doesn't mean it isn't music - to someone's ears - just that it's music I don't like.

(Put that in your non-pipe and don't smoke it - sorry, just couldn't resist the Magritte (it was him wasn't it?) analogy...   Smiley )
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Baz
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« Reply #8 on: 17:09:22, 06-02-2008 »

The discussion is no more pointless than is insinuated by Cage's title page...


It's interesting to see how far people will go to make something of it! VIEW HERE

(I particularly like the conductor's Victor Borg impersonation.)

Baz
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time_is_now
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« Reply #9 on: 17:10:35, 06-02-2008 »

I don't mind whether you are Baz or anyone else likes it or not, Stuart. I was just amused - in an irritable kind of way - by Baz's claim to be putting forward an objective description of what the piece is up to aesthetically (or even phenomenologically).

Apparently, 'it contains (deliberately so) nothing' - well, that's already incorrect. The instruction given to the performer is 'tacet', which indicates that whatever sounds occur in the piece will not come from the expected source (i.e. the instrument on stage). Does Baz not understand that the piece is intended to be composed from the other sounds audible in the concert hall, or does he understand very well but find this such a distasteful prospect that he feels compelled to lie about it?

Next, we are told that it 'merely represents a bizarre experiment in uncontrolled total aleatoricism', which, even if you leave out the value judgments ('merely' and 'bizarre') is an inaccurate and unhelpful statement. Given that the only variables are the sounds around the concert hall, which are no more variable in this piece than in any other, it would be more accurate to say the piece draws our attention to a degree of chance or variability in all listening experiences. To me, calling it 'an experiment in uncontrolled total aleatoricism' suggests that it means to have an effect which less 'totally aleatoric' pieces don't have.

The final suggestion that Cage 'left it to poor old John [recte David] Tudor to "carry the can"' is somewhat bewildering, not only because it doesn't have to be a pianist, still less David Tudor, but also because if, as Baz insists, the piece 'contains nothing', then how can the performer's actions be considered to shape the piece any more than the composer's can?

Anyway, as you say, we don't really have to discuss this again, so that's probably my last word on the subject.
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Baz
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« Reply #10 on: 19:05:01, 06-02-2008 »

I don't mind whether you are Baz or anyone else likes it or not, Stuart. I was just amused - in an irritable kind of way - by Baz's claim to be putting forward an objective description of what the piece is up to aesthetically (or even phenomenologically).

It's surprising how much passion can be aroused by the overriding instruction Tacet. That is, as far as I can see, the only possible 'objective' description of the piece possible - and to Cage's credit he at least gave that if nothing else.

Quote
Apparently, 'it contains (deliberately so) nothing' - well, that's already incorrect. The instruction given to the performer is 'tacet', which indicates that whatever sounds occur in the piece will not come from the expected source (i.e. the instrument on stage). Does Baz not understand that the piece is intended to be composed from the other sounds audible in the concert hall, or does he understand very well but find this such a distasteful prospect that he feels compelled to lie about it?

By "it", I meant the product Cage delivered through the score. However, by "it" you do not mean this - instead what you seem to mean is merely "what is left to be heard in the concert hall as a result of the complete lack of anything Cage himself generated". It is clear (as you state below) that these "other audible sounds in the concert hall" cannot in themselves stem from any tangible artistic and structural idea the composer may have had unless that idea was totally aleatoric in concept,and in a manner ultimately outside the control of the composer. Furthermore, the only ways in which the actual "performers" could have any influence upon these ambient sounds is by expressing through their innate humanity (indeed their humour) responses to the circumstances of the performance to which the audience spontaneously responds (as can be witnessed in the video link I offered). No such expressions are implied directly in anything Cage himself specified (as far as I am aware).

Quote
Next, we are told that it 'merely represents a bizarre experiment in uncontrolled total aleatoricism', which, even if you leave out the value judgments ('merely' and 'bizarre') is an inaccurate and unhelpful statement. Given that the only variables are the sounds around the concert hall, which are no more variable in this piece than in any other, it would be more accurate to say the piece draws our attention to a degree of chance or variability in all listening experiences. To me, calling it 'an experiment in uncontrolled total aleatoricism' suggests that it means to have an effect which less 'totally aleatoric' pieces don't have.

Your final sentence is illogical. The whole point in an experiment in "uncontrolled total aleatoricism" (as I believe the piece demonstrates decisively) is that whatever effect it has is a) not necessarily "meant", and b) the outcome only of circumstances that are neither explicitly planned by the composer, nor even affected by the presence of silent performers (whether just a soloist, or a large orchestra).

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The final suggestion that Cage 'left it to poor old John [recte David] Tudor to "carry the can"' is somewhat bewildering, not only because it doesn't have to be a pianist, still less David Tudor, but also because if, as Baz insists, the piece 'contains nothing', then how can the performer's actions be considered to shape the piece any more than the composer's can?

David Tudor gave the first performance (so introducing it to the world). You have perpetrated a non sequitur: it is clear to anybody of even modest intelligence that the piece does, indeed, contain nothing; and that even if the performers are alarmed to find that there is nothing for them in the score, the composer has at least had the honesty to reassure them in their anxiety by the marking "tacet". It does not, therefore, follow that any of the actions on the part of the performers "shape the piece" in any way at all - since there is in fact nothing at all there to be shaped in any way whatsoever. The only thing that can be in any way "shaped" is what would otherwise be a completely fallow period of 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence (which is all the composer himself has deigned to provide).

Quote
Anyway, as you say, we don't really have to discuss this again, so that's probably my last word on the subject.

Well at least you managed to say a good deal more than did John Cage, and I'm certain that it must have taken you longer to frame than 4 minutes and 33 seconds.
Baz
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C Dish
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« Reply #11 on: 19:09:52, 06-02-2008 »

Quote
Your final sentence is illogical. The whole point in an experiment in "uncontrolled total aleatoricism" (as I believe the piece demonstrates decisively) is that whatever effect it has is a) not necessarily "meant", and b) the outcome only of circumstances that are neither explicitly planned by the composer, nor even affected by the presence of silent performers (whether just a soloist, or a large orchestra).

The presence of the performer on the stage is necessary in that it invites the kind of attentive listening that the piece requires.

Having said that, I don't take Baz's analysis as merely dismissive, but an effort to make clear what's going on. Still, this very discussion has run exactly this course repeatedly since the piece first came about. In that sense, there truly is nothing else new to say in present circumstances.
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inert fig here
time_is_now
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« Reply #12 on: 19:27:04, 06-02-2008 »

Well, since I'm not now off-topic, I'll try one more post ... Roll Eyes My excuse is that I didn't really take much part in the previous discussions of this piece, as I recall.


Quote
Apparently, 'it contains (deliberately so) nothing' ...

By "it", I meant the product Cage delivered through the score.
I don't believe you did mean 'the product Cage delivered through the score' (see below), but if you did, then as you say, it contains ca. 12 pages including the word 'TACET' (as well as 3 movement headers). That is not nothing, it is a clear an unambiguous, albeit unusual, performance instruction.

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it is clear to anybody of even modest intelligence that the piece does, indeed, contain nothing
So are we talking about 'the piece' now, or 'the product Cage delivered through the score'? If you think they're the same thing, then I'm beginning to see where your problem lies.

As for your last point, surely you don't mean to suggest that one shouldn't spend longer discussing a piece than the piece lasts in performance? That would be an antiquated position indeed!
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
Baz
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« Reply #13 on: 20:56:24, 06-02-2008 »

copied from the other thread...



The presence of the performer on the stage is necessary in that it invites the kind of attentive listening that the piece requires.


This is a mistake CD!! It is not "the piece" that requires attentive listening at all, because the content of "the piece" is nil. It is therefore fallacious to argue that during the 4' 33" time-span given to it anything other than the specific at-that-moment auditory experiences completely unknown to the composer can have been listened to (however attentively).

Anybody making any other claim is, as far as I am concerned, only rehearsing a 'religious' experience. Indeed, if a large church congregation were suddenly asked by the presiding priest to hold a period of 4' 33" in "silent prayer" the experience would be virtually indistinguishable from a planned performance of the Cage.. The only difference would be that the pressing awareness of extraneous ambient sounds would probably be less acute due to the lack of embarrassment at the composer's inability/unwillingness to assist by offering any pitch/rhythmic/or-any-other-new-fangled indicators to those present (other than simply telling all the performers at the outset to shut up).

Baz
« Last Edit: 20:58:42, 06-02-2008 by Baz » Logged
time_is_now
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« Reply #14 on: 21:13:17, 06-02-2008 »

It is not "the piece" that requires attentive listening at all, because the content of "the piece" is nil.
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This, as I suggested above, seems to be the nub of our disagreement. (I would call it the nub of your misunderstanding, but I guess that's what a disagreement always looks like to one of the participants ...)

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Indeed, if a large church congregation were suddenly asked by the presiding priest to hold a period of 4' 33" in "silent prayer" the experience would be virtually indistinguishable from a planned performance of the Cage.
Indeed! Excellent point. Grin
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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