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Baz
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« Reply #15 on: 21:16:52, 06-02-2008 » |
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I don't believe you did mean 'the product Cage delivered through the score' (see below), but if you did, then as you say, it contains ca. 12 pages including the word 'TACET' (as well as 3 movement headers). That is not nothing, it is a clear an unambiguous, albeit unusual, performance instruction.
That is precisely what I meant, and still do. Would you please tell me exactly what "performance instruction" is being given by using the word 'tacet' together with movement headers (other than telling all the performers to shut up throughout each duration)? Usually a performer encounters the instruction "tacet" to indicate that while others are performing he/she should remain silent. Since, however, Cage requires ALL to remain "tacet" throughout, what has Cage provided for anyone else to perform during these periods of performing inactivity. I still submit nothing.Baz |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #16 on: 21:20:23, 06-02-2008 » |
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Usually a performer encounters the instruction "tacet" to indicate that while others are performing he/she should remain silent. That would be one interpretation of the term's use, I suppose. But why couldn't it simply indicate that the performer should sit at his or her instrument without playing? |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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C Dish
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« Reply #17 on: 21:21:39, 06-02-2008 » |
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Indeed! Excellent point.  ..if a recycled one. In fact, if I had a sixpence for every time this conversation has taken place, I'd live in a castle instead of a moat. To elaborate on tin's cryptic reply, the religion/priest situation is not created by Cage, but by the performance scenario. Cage merely exploits it in order to critique it. If indeed the concert hall becomes less of a quasi-religious insitution, Cage's piece would become that much less relevant. But Cage isn't the one making a religion. |
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inert fig here
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Baz
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« Reply #18 on: 22:04:21, 06-02-2008 » |
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Usually a performer encounters the instruction "tacet" to indicate that while others are performing he/she should remain silent. That would be one interpretation of the term's use, I suppose. But why couldn't it simply indicate that the performer should sit at his or her instrument without playing? But that is what it normally does mean isn't it? The question that arises with Cage here is this: what is the point in sitting at an instrument (which may have to be transported to the venue for the event) for the express purpose of not playing it? (It's rather like journeying to an examination room for the express purpose of not taking an examination.) |
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time_is_now
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« Reply #19 on: 22:11:26, 06-02-2008 » |
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But that is what it normally does mean isn't it? Yes. That's what I was trying to say. You seemed to be the one disagreeing. The question that arises with Cage here is this: what is the point in sitting at an instrument (which may have to be transported to the venue for the event) for the express purpose of not playing it? (It's rather like journeying to an examination room for the express purpose of not taking an examination.) I don't see the problem ... |
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« Last Edit: 22:33:59, 06-02-2008 by time_is_now »
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Baz
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« Reply #20 on: 22:17:20, 06-02-2008 » |
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But that is what it normally does mean isn't it? Yes. That's what I was trying to say. You seemed to be the one disagreeing. The question that arises with Cage here is this: what is the point in sitting at an instrument (which may have to be transported to the venue for the event) for the express purpose of not playing it? (It's rather like journeying to an examination room for the express purpose of not taking an examination.) I don't see the problem ... Which problem - yours or mine? |
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richard barrett
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« Reply #21 on: 22:17:34, 06-02-2008 » |
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what is the point in sitting at an instrument (which may have to be transported to the venue for the event) for the express purpose of not playing it? (It's rather like journeying to an examination room for the express purpose of not taking an examination.)
David Tudor: "If you don't know, why do you ask?" |
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martle
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« Reply #22 on: 22:24:35, 06-02-2008 » |
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I teach a course involving a seminar on 4'33'' every year (well, for the last x years, anyway). I always start it with a performance of the piece, given by myself and the students. You can imagine the reactions. Thing is, after exploring the meanings of the piece during the seminar, I get them to 'perform' it again at the end; and suddenly its innate musicality becomes clear to at least 99% of them.  All this nonsense about 'nothingness' is a red herring, Baz. It's a piece about rhythm. The rhythm between time = 0, and time= 4'33''. Cage never made any claims to the contrary. The layout of the score, the indication 'Tacet' etc. are just typical Cage glosses - and very mischievous and amusing they are, too, IMO. That's me done, repeated and out. |
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Green. Always green.
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time_is_now
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« Reply #23 on: 22:35:23, 06-02-2008 » |
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That's me done, repeated and out. Me too. Thanks martle.  |
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The city is a process which always veers away from the form envisaged and desired, ... whose revenge upon its architects and planners undoes every dream of mastery. It is [also] one of the sites where Dasein is assigned the impossible task of putting right what can never be put right. - Rob Lapsley
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Evan Johnson
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« Reply #24 on: 22:37:21, 06-02-2008 » |
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All this nonsense about 'nothingness' is a red herring, Baz. It's a piece about rhythm. The rhythm between time = 0, and time= 4'33''. Cage never made any claims to the contrary. The layout of the score, the indication 'Tacet' etc. are just typical Cage glosses - and very mischievous and amusing they are, too, IMO. That's me done, repeated and out. Indeed. Note, please, that the instrumentalist does not do "nothing" for 4'33"; s/he in fact has three movements to perform, with the apposite framing performative gestures. Hence the piece is about proportional durations as musical material, just as is most of Cage's mature work up to that point. (As is, in a very different way, most of mine, but that is neither here nor there, nor would I make any claims as to my own things' "maturity" or lack thereof.) Why did I get involved in this? |
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martle
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« Reply #25 on: 22:43:04, 06-02-2008 » |
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Why did I get involved in this?
'Cos you're a caring and sensitive young thing, evs. |
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Green. Always green.
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #26 on: 04:56:20, 07-02-2008 » |
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If you are all done, can I start a 'fread abaht them bricks dahn the Tate Bleedin' Gallery? Cor blimey, wot a load of rubbish, eh?
I 'ad that Damien 'irst in the back of the cab, once...
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
- Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
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autoharp
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« Reply #27 on: 07:36:38, 07-02-2008 » |
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If you are all done, can I start a 'fread abaht them bricks dahn the Tate Bleedin' Gallery? Cor blimey, wot a load of rubbish, eh?
I 'ad that Damien 'irst in the back of the cab, once...
Not as relevant to 4'33" as Rauschenberg's White paintings . . . |
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Bryn
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« Reply #28 on: 08:21:08, 07-02-2008 » |
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(It's rather like journeying to an examination room for the express purpose of not taking an examination.)
Been there. Done that. Didn't bother with the T-shirt though. |
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Baz
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« Reply #29 on: 08:39:44, 07-02-2008 » |
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Contrary to the impression, I did not start this thread - it arose from the other thread in response to a comment that a certain file remained silent (and therefore might be 4' 33"). My response was intended to be tongue-in-cheek only, and none of my postings has (I trust) indicated any hostility to Cage's work whatsoever - but has sought only to discuss its aims and structure. Even the 4-33 file I posted (totally silent) was intended to be humorous, since it did not represent the results of an actual performance situation. It brought to mind a certain academic review of a then-new recording of the work by Peter Dickinson which, in itself, consisted of a 4-inch blank column. I do NOT regard Cage as a charlatan, but indeed as a serious composer (though one not devoid of humour and novelty). I fully accept his own words on the matter: It is thus possible to make a musical composition the continuity of which is free of individual taste and memory (psychology) and also of the literature and 'traditions' of the art. The sounds enter the time-space centred within themselves, unimpeded by service to any abstraction, their 360 degrees of circumference free for an infinite play or interpenetration.
Cage, Silence, p.59 I also agree with W. D. Shirley's view of 4' 33"... ...'consisting entirely of silence, defining the minimum content of a piece of music'. That seems to me in itself an interesting and novel exploration. I also agree further with Shirley that such extremes as 4' 33"... ...'are sometimes impossible to take seriously as music, for obvious reasons, but his writings, in spite of the doubtless deliberate illogicality which pervades many of them, are generally brilliant. Much depends on whether the reader is willing to accept the contradictions which are an essential part of Cage's aesthetics, and their realization in musical terms. One thing , however, is certain: Cage is no charlatan or fool, and to mistake him for such would in itself be foolishness.' Baz |
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« Last Edit: 08:59:11, 07-02-2008 by Baz »
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