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Author Topic: Germaine Greer on culture, football, and opera  (Read 694 times)
Ian Pace
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« on: 11:09:40, 24-03-2008 »

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/theatre/drama/story/0,,2267709,00.html
« Last Edit: 11:33:43, 24-03-2008 by Ian Pace » Logged

'These acts of keeping politics out of music, however, do not prevent musicology from being a political act . . .they assure that every apolitical act assumes a greater political immediacy' - Philip Bohlman, 'Musicology as a Political Act'
Sydney Grew
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« Reply #1 on: 11:16:25, 24-03-2008 »

We look forward to heaping praise upon Madame Greer, but there is a problem with the link: "We haven't been able to serve the page you asked for."
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Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #2 on: 11:20:22, 24-03-2008 »

For Mr Grew and others too, here's a link which gets you there:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/theatre/drama/story/0,,2267709,00.html
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #3 on: 11:23:02, 24-03-2008 »

For Mr Grew and others too, here's a link which gets you there:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/theatre/drama/story/0,,2267709,00.html

Take your own onions - the tripe's already there.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
Swan_Knight
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« Reply #4 on: 12:11:47, 24-03-2008 »

(quote)Football unites all those people who love the game, whether in agreement or disagreement, at the same time as it divides the supporters of the different clubs. The more you know about the game, the deeper the enjoyment; the more passionately you support your club, the deeper your involvement. The amount of intellectual energy generated by football is unimaginably massive; the effect of such passion is to dramatise the lives of people who might otherwise be snared in disadvantage, poverty and disability, with very little to look forward to if not their club's promotion. This cultural activity receives no support whatever from government because it needs none.(quote)

This is a hoary old argument, usually advanced by populists (and I don't believe Greer herself has ever been a populist) to point to the 'great good' that football and sport generally do to improve the lot of the disadvantaged, both among individuals and countries.  Yet it's a gutless argument - and, in the final analysis, a sick one: the Brazilian beggar, living amongst poverty, crime and vice, is supposed to comfort him/herself with the knowledge that the national team is the best in the world? So, basically, it's an argument for Hitler's beloved bread and circuses - give 'em a few 'triumphs' and they won't notice how bad awful their lives are.  I can well understand the appeal of this argument to the British government, who are determined to tax the British people into the ground in return for third-rate public services and a housing market that fails to meet the needs of the population. 

Admittedly, Greer makes some good points in the early part of that article, but I question how interested in sport or football she actually is - I suspect not at all.  This is another pointless polemic from a woman whom time has passed by. 

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...so flatterten lachend die Locken....
Reiner Torheit
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« Reply #5 on: 12:16:56, 24-03-2008 »

The Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra project shoots her argument out of the sky without breaking sweat.

She is just typing controversial bollocks for the sake of appearing to embrace popular sport.  The crack about "second-rate product" is empty drivel...  she doesn't even dare name which opera-house she's thinking of (maybe she thinks there is only one anyhow?).

Quote
This is another pointless polemic from a woman whom time has passed by.

Agreed entirely.
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"I was, for several months, mutely in love with a coloratura soprano, who seemed to me to have wafted straight from Paradise to the stage of the Odessa Opera-House"
-  Leon Trotsky, "My Life"
perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #6 on: 12:35:46, 24-03-2008 »

For Mr Grew and others too, here's a link which gets you there:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/theatre/drama/story/0,,2267709,00.html

Take your own onions - the tripe's already there.

Garbage of a rich and rare variety.  Football is at heart a business - subsidised by the fortunes of the mega-rich and built on a bedrock of eye-watering ticket prices and feral merchandising.  It does not dramatise the lives of the disadvantaged; it exploits them - a rich men's plaything.

So incoherent is Ms Greer's style that I find it almost impossible to understand what is her main point. 
« Last Edit: 12:40:00, 24-03-2008 by perfect wagnerite » Logged

At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
stuart macrae
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ascolta


« Reply #7 on: 12:41:49, 24-03-2008 »

Agreed with all the above - I felt the whole argument lost credibility before she even got to it, with this choice phrase:

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new age mumbo-jumbo from Tibet

Um...surely she can't be referring to Buddhism? It's not exactly "new age" as far as I can recall... Huh
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Antheil
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« Reply #8 on: 12:48:39, 24-03-2008 »

So incoherent is Ms Greer's style that I find it almost impossible to understand what is her main point. 

My feelings exactly pw - and to think she got paid for this  Huh

And yet again I have messed up the quotes!
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
Morticia
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« Reply #9 on: 12:58:13, 24-03-2008 »


So incoherent is Ms Greer's style that I find it almost impossible to understand what is her main point. 


I'm glad it's not just me, PW. If there is a point in there somewhere then it has escaped me completely.
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Baz
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« Reply #10 on: 13:56:15, 24-03-2008 »

In my opinion, only a truly "female eunuch" could have come to the view that football in any way equates with Western High Art. Will future connaisseurs of high art look back to the 20th century to hail the appearance of a "new art form" - FOOTBALL? If they will, the future is even more doomed even than those "global warming" pundits predict!

Baz
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Antheil
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« Reply #11 on: 14:07:25, 24-03-2008 »

In my opinion, only a truly "female eunuch" could have come to the view that football in any way equates with Western High Art. Will future connaisseurs of high art look back to the 20th century to hail the appearance of a "new art form" - FOOTBALL? If they will, the future is even more doomed even than those "global warming" pundits predict!
Baz

My Dear Baz,

Ms. Greer is deluded.  She meant to write about RUGBY of course!  (Not that the English know anything about that  Roll Eyes )

xxxx Anty
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Reality, sa molesworth 2, is so sordid it makes me shudder
Baz
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« Reply #12 on: 14:18:06, 24-03-2008 »

In my opinion, only a truly "female eunuch" could have come to the view that football in any way equates with Western High Art. Will future connaisseurs of high art look back to the 20th century to hail the appearance of a "new art form" - FOOTBALL? If they will, the future is even more doomed even than those "global warming" pundits predict!
Baz

My Dear Baz,

Ms. Greer is deluded.  She meant to write about RUGBY of course!  (Not that the English know anything about that  Roll Eyes )

xxxx Anty

Well - this is Rugby...



and I can see nothing that is likely to interest a female eunuch (or many others really). I notice that it's quite close to Coventry - perhaps she should be sent there?

Baz xxx
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Tony Watson
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« Reply #13 on: 14:28:10, 24-03-2008 »

Ah, Daventry! I used to live there.

I don't understand Ms Greer's main point either. At one point she puts in a paragraph about black people choosing not to go to the Proms and the average age of people at Glastonbury but does not develop that idea. I saw the end of the Bradford v Chelsea game on television. At the end the Bradford fans ran on the pitch and I didn't see a single Asian or black face (and this was Bradford). How does that fit in with her ideas about celebrating multiculturism? I wonder whether she has ever stood on the terraces at a football match. She wouldn't find it very cultural.

And football is subsidised by just about all of us. It gets a large chunk of the BBC licence money (far more than classical music does) and a lot of ITV's revenue, which comes from advertising and which is paid for by the prices of things in the shops.
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Baz
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« Reply #14 on: 14:36:37, 24-03-2008 »

At the end the Bradford fans ran on the pitch and I didn't see a single Asian or black face (and this was Bradford). How does that fit in with her ideas about celebrating multiculturism?

But there are two points here:

a) is multiculturalism something that should be celebrated? This is not intended as a rhetorical or provocative question - how can anything that ends with the suffix "ism" be some actual THING to celebrate?

b) the idea of any causal link between "sport" and 'multiculturalism" is quite misplaced (however good an idea it might have been) - we all know (going back to Norman Tebbit's so-called [and true!] 'cricket test') that when an 'English' crowd of supporters turn up for a cricket match between the West Indies and England, those of one ethnicity naturally support one team, and those of another the other! It's just a FACT.

Baz
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