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Author Topic: Re: The Cathedral and Church thread  (Read 6312 times)
Kittybriton
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« Reply #405 on: 14:27:48, 25-08-2008 »

Welsh words are not so diffecult for me to say.
I even got double L kind of half good.

The words are closer to old Russian which noone knows now. May be sort of. I don't really know. That is my feeling.
Names sound like something from legends about old Russia.
Can anyone tell me? I see many similarities between Welsh and Greek
(Thinking particularly of dduw / theo, but other examples as well)
Was the Welsh language influenced by missionaries making extensive use of Greek scriptures?
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Antheil
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« Reply #406 on: 14:56:49, 25-08-2008 »


Can anyone tell me? I see many similarities between Welsh and Greek
(Thinking particularly of dduw / theo, but other examples as well)
Was the Welsh language influenced by missionaries making extensive use of Greek scriptures?

Missionaries in Wales speaking Greek Kitty?   Huh

Welsh is a branch to an Indo-European language. The Welsh themselves are descendants of the Galatians, to whom Paul wrote his famous letter.  I think therefore the Welsh Saints were the Missionaries bringing the Word to others  Cheesy
« Last Edit: 15:07:04, 25-08-2008 by Antheil » Logged

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richard barrett
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« Reply #407 on: 15:11:58, 25-08-2008 »

Can anyone tell me? I see many similarities between Welsh and Greek

They just arise from the fact that Welsh and Greek ultimately stem from the same roots (have a look at this).
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Kittybriton
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« Reply #408 on: 20:24:59, 25-08-2008 »

Thanks Antheil and Richard, both.

The thit plockens!
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David_Underdown
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« Reply #409 on: 12:45:59, 27-08-2008 »

A lot of theological words in Welsh probably come via the latin.  The Welsh word for church is eglwys (think I've spelled that right), which has fairly obvious connections with the equivalent in romance languages, eglise in French and iglesia in Spanish.
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David
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« Reply #410 on: 12:53:32, 27-08-2008 »

Interesting that while the Welsh, French and Spanish words come from Latin, the English church derives from Greek.  Can anyone shed any light on why this might be the case? 
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Ron Dough
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« Reply #411 on: 13:06:56, 27-08-2008 »

Interesting that while the Welsh, French and Spanish words come from Latin, the English church derives from Greek.  Can anyone shed any light on why this might be the case? 

Almost certainly because it came via the Germanic form used by the Saxons, pw. If you consider that Christianity was widespread here long before the Norman invasion, then the likelihood of another word from a different root replacing it in the common tongue would be rather small.
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David_Underdown
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« Reply #412 on: 13:09:10, 27-08-2008 »

Where does Greek come into it? the Greek is ekklesia, which became the Latin ecclesia (and so on).  Church seems to be more related to kirk, and thence to the germanic languages kirche isn't it in German?

Though I see that the OED traces this back to the Greek for house of the Lord,the Latin equivlaent also gets used in some languages too, Duomo in Italian, and Dom in German.  Perhaps the Greek ekklesia has retained more of the sense of being the whole (people of the)  church, rather than referring to a particular building?
« Last Edit: 14:29:03, 27-08-2008 by David_Underdown » Logged

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Don Basilio
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« Reply #413 on: 13:19:16, 27-08-2008 »

I've looked it up on the online OED, and I've never seen a word with such a complicated etymology.

Some samples:

 The ulterior derivation has been keenly disputed. The L. circus, and a Gothic word kêlikn ‘tower, upper chamber’ (app. originally Gaulish) have both been proposed (the latter suggested by the Alemannic chîlihha), but are set aside as untenable; and there is now a general agreement among scholars in referring it to the Greek word {kappa}{gumac}{rho}{iota}{alpha}{kappa}{goacu}{nu}, properly adj. ‘of the Lord, dominicum, dominical’ (f. {kappa}{gumacacu}{rho}{iota}{omicron}{fsigma} lord), which occurs, from the 3rd century at least, used substantively (sc. {delta}{gwfrown}{mu}{alpha}, or the like) = ‘house of the Lord’, as a name of the Christian house of worship.

The chief objections to this derivation of the Teutonic (and Slavonic) name are the following. The ordinary name for ‘church’ in Gr. was {elenis}{kappa}{kappa}{lambda}{eta}{sigma}{giacu}{alpha}, and this (or {beta}{alpha}{sigma}{iota}{lambda}{iota}{kappa}{ghacu}, BASILICA) was the name which passed into Latin and all the Romanic langs.; also, into all the Celtic langs., OIr. eclais, Ir. and Gael. eglais, Manx agglish, OWelsh ecluis, W. eglwys, Cornish eglos, -es, -is, Breton iliz. Hence, an à priori unlikelihood that any other Greek name should have passed into the Teutonic languages. Moreover, {elenis}{kappa}{kappa}{lambda}{eta}{sigma}{giacu}{alpha} was actually adopted in Gothic, where as aikklêsjô it occurs in the N.T. many times. But as the sense here is not that of the place of public worship, but of the Christian society or assembly, it forms no evidence against the coexistence of a Gothic repr. of {kappa}{upsilon}{rho}{iota}{alpha}{kappa}{goacu}{nu}, in the sense of the‘Lord's house’.

Cf. also the Slavonic forms: OSlav. cr{ibreve}ky, 10th c., cr{ubreve}ky fem., later cr{ubreve}k{ubreve}ve, c{imac}rkov{ibreve}, Russ. cerkov', Bulg. {chacek}erkova, Serbian crkva, Slovenish cerkev, Chekh cirkev (obs.), Pol. cerkiew (but only for ‘Greek church’), Lusat. cyrkej.
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perfect wagnerite
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« Reply #414 on: 13:20:23, 27-08-2008 »

I'd understood it came from kyriakon - but of course now you and Ron mention it kirche is the obvious root, which I completely failed to recall (in spite of knowing a lot more German than Greek).  I suppose there could be a common root, of course.

Edit - Just seen Don B's post, which thickens the plot somewhat.
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At every one of these [classical] concerts in England you will find rows of weary people who are there, not because they really like classical music, but because they think they ought to like it. (Shaw, Don Juan in Hell)
Ron Dough
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« Reply #415 on: 13:39:47, 27-08-2008 »

Anglo-Saxon has cirice, where both c's are softened*: by Chaucer's time the middle syllable had disappeared: he says of the Wife of Bath: "Husbondes at chirche dore she hadde five", so (problems with the root notwithstanding) the word can be traced unbroken through the English language for at least one thousand two hundred years. The Scots version, kirk is the same root in a Scandinavian version.

[* i.e. aspirated: I was in Italian mode there, it seems.]
« Last Edit: 18:20:21, 27-08-2008 by Ron Dough » Logged
David_Underdown
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« Reply #416 on: 14:32:12, 27-08-2008 »

Actually, looking aagain at the OED stuff, I think it is saying that ultimately it derives from kyriakon, via a somewhat twisted route.
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Antheil
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« Reply #417 on: 18:41:24, 27-08-2008 »

Thank you for that post Don Basilio.  We seem to be getting off Churches & Cathedrals but it is fascinating.

Rhygyfarch, who wrote the Life of Saint David in the eleventh century, speaks of a Synod which was held in Llanddewi Brefi, Ceredigion, sometime around the year 569. This was twenty-eight years before Saint Augustine landed in Kent in 589, on the orders of the Pope, to Christianise Britain. Augustine’s task was to evangelise the pagan Anglo-Saxons, who had flocked into south-east England following the departure of the Romans. The Welsh Christian tradition was already old by his time, and the Latin language had left its mark on it (the Welsh words eglwys, mynach, pechod from the Latin ecclesia, monachus, peccatum).

The Welsh word Pasg comes from the Latin Pascha (from the Hebrew Pesach). The English words are Lent and Easter – Lent from Old English lencten (‘lengthen’ – a reference to the days lengthening in spring), and Easter from the name of the pagan goddess, Eostr. The Welsh language and British Christianity share the same cradle. The newcomers to this island were Christianised much later.

Although the Church in Wales is Yr Eglwys yng Nghymru you don't find many Churches referred to as Eglwys.  The fifth and sixth centuries were the age of the Welsh saints, the founders of the llannau. The word llan originally meant ‘a plot of land’, and then ‘a plot of land on which a church had been built’, and then the ‘church’ itself. A great number of place-names in Wales include the element llan, followed by the name of the saint who founded it, i.e. Llanilltud or Llanddewi or Llanvihangel (St. Michael)



Much food for thought on this thread.

« Last Edit: 18:47:50, 27-08-2008 by Antheil » Logged

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Antheil
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« Reply #418 on: 17:18:41, 01-10-2008 »

Not wishing to go off topic on Don Basilio's holiday thread, but on the subject of Baroque here is St. Nicholas' in Prague and apologies as I am having difficulty with photobucket in resizing.



Here is a side altar



This is St. Vitus in Prague, truly amazing, the solid silver suspended Angels guarding the silver tomb of St. John Nepomuk, really takes your breath away



And the actual silver tomb



I think Don B. would be blown away by the Churches in Prague.
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Don Basilio
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« Reply #419 on: 17:24:56, 01-10-2008 »

Yes, I'm intrigued, but Die Wies and Vierzehnheilgen have a lightness not in evidence here.

Thank you for posting the pikkies, though.

There was a baroque statue of St John Nepomuk on the bridge at Wurzburg - he is supposed to have been thrown into the river at Prague for refusing to reveal the secrets the queen had revealed to him in confession.
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To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh: a time to mourn, and a time to dance
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