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Author Topic: Re: six_events (Matthew Lee Knowles)  (Read 2917 times)
A
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« Reply #210 on: 15:34:01, 27-11-2007 »

I know I shouldn't say this as I will be told I am grumping .

But , can anyone explain to me WHY i HAVE to like modern music?

Does everyone here love Delius? Baroque violin playing? Shostakovitch string quartets? Andreas Scholl?

If not ... why not? and if not ... have you been walking round with fingers in your ears? Can they not think for themselves? Are they told what to listen to and what to like?

Show imagination all you tuneless modern music lovers... think of the other side. I have heard enough and rejected... as is my right.

A
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« Reply #211 on: 15:38:49, 27-11-2007 »

Words to that effect have been used to describe all manner of compositions through the ages.  Riots have occurred!  Think Rite of Spring.

We live in an age of Turner Prize pickled cows, unmade beds and 4.33.  All in the name of art and music.  It's difficult to come to terms with it all - well I find it so.  I was discussing it with a colleague and he said that really nowadays there's nowhere else to go.  We've done all the best music and the old masters.....

I'm not sure I agree - in fact I don't.  Perhaps it is an age thing.



nowhere else to go?!?!!?


the heavens!!!


sorry for all the exclamation marks,but that shocked me!


Best
Matthew
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« Reply #212 on: 15:40:18, 27-11-2007 »

WHY i HAVE to like modern music?


I don't think anyone has ever said you should have to like modern music, A.

You are free to like whatever you wish.

However, discussions about Delius, baroque violin-playing etc seem to go on here without interruptions or barracking of "Why don't you play something new for a change, that's old rubbish!",  or indeed calling that music a "con".  It would seem to me that modern music is owed the same kind of basic forum courtesy we accord discussions about Delius or baroque violin technique?
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« Reply #213 on: 15:44:27, 27-11-2007 »

Since splitting the thread has necessitated the loss of Matthew's original post from this one, here it is again, so we can remind ourselves how things started:


Hey everyone!
I'm new here...so please talk to me!

I am a 22 year old composer, living in London and just finishing a degree at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama.

I thought I would start by telling you about a project of mine called SIX_EVENTS

six ordinary events, like getting on a bus or sitting in a park, all become performances over 6 days in January 2008.

These events are pieces of music...or art....whichever one you like.
Anyone can do them anywhere they are in the world, who knows...this might turn into a record breaker!

if you like this (and I hope you do!) please read the following information, which is from the myspace page.

i am interested in John cage, and happenings, intermedia events, conceptual art...that kind of thing and would love to speak to likeminded people.

And as this is a forum...if anyone wants to discuss anything about anything in this post....then go for it!

****


SIX_EVENTS is a project by the composer Matthew Lee Knowles.
It is in keeping with his love of Conceptual Art, Happenings, John Cage, George Brecht, Fluxus, Event Scores, Tasks and turning simple ideas into potentially complex situations where an infinite number of outside and unpredictable factors can influence the focus.

It is also an experiment, very much in keeping with the 60's way of thinking. Matthew thinks of this project as a worldwide simultaneous happening and is encouraging performers (for they are performers) to record their involvement in any way (photo, film, audio, poetry, writing, drawing) to be exhibited in London after the event. (NB: Video files should be uploaded to youtube)

The first event takes place on January 21st 2008 and there is an event every day (with exception to Saturday 26th) with the final event being on Sunday 27th January.

Performers are free to execute their performance at any point during the day and in each event have to follow through a task. These tasks range from clapping hands once, to simply not thinking about the length of time one will ride a bus for.

Events call for certain times and durations to be recorded and sent to the composer; these timings and durations will go to writing a new piece of music in late 2008.

Event four (supermarket) calls for receipts to be kept, it is hoped that performers will send their receipts to Matthew through the post or scan and email them to six_events@yahoo.co.uk

Performers should constant listen to the sounds around them, they are hearing a very unique composition. Also, anything at all of interest should be documented, if something happens (someone accuses you of acting suspicious, a pigeon sits on your head, you fall asleep, you trip up....) please write this down and email to the above address.

NB: you do not have to take part in every single event, you can choose just one if you so wish



here are the actual events

Event one BUS Monday January 21st 2008
On the prescribed day you should board any bus, at any time.
The length of your journey should not be premeditated.
When you are ready, alight the bus.
You should record the times you boarded & alighted the bus.

Event two ROAD Tuesday January 22nd

On the prescribed day, walk down any road.
You should clap your hands together once, at any point.
You may walk at any pace, but must record the name of the road & the duration of how long you walked for.
It is at your discretion to how long you walk for (at the end of the road, you could turn around & walk back.)

Event three BUILDING Wednesday January 23rd
On the prescribed day you should enter any building.
Discover the building for a duration of up to one hour.
Sit down at least once & close your eyes.
You should record the time you entered & left the building.

Event four SUPERMARKET Thursday January 24th
On the prescribed day you should enter any supermarket.
Walk down every isle at your own pace.
On your way round you must pick up any item for less then £1
Go back to your original starting place, in the supermarket.
Before paying for your item you must move one other item in the store to another place, an incongruous position on another shelf.
Pay for your item & keep your receipt.
You may not own the bought item, it must be given away or thrown into a bin.

Event five PUB Friday January 25th
On the prescribed day you should enter any pub & ask one person any question you wish.
You should request a glass of water, you should not drink it.
Leave the pub.
You should record the time you entered & left the pub.

Event six PARK Sunday January 27th
On the prescribed day you should enter any park
Sit or stand on a green area for any length of time
You should look up to the sky at least once.
You should record the time you entered & left the park.




http://www.myspace.com/six_events
http://www.myspace.com/composermatthewknowlespianist



email to six_events@yahoo.co.uk
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« Reply #214 on: 15:47:57, 27-11-2007 »

I haven't read all of this thread but one comment I have about such projects is that they usually seem to be far more interesting for active participants than for any (relatively uninvolved) audience members.

However it strikes me that, in this project, participants are only getting involved in a fairly minimal way in the creative process - they appear to be providing data to be input into an unknown (to them at least) compositional process to be implemented by MLK. Participants' experiences of the 6 events themselves might be, as several others have suggested, fairly mundane.

Good luck with your project Matthew but I shan't be getting involved because I don't personally find it interesting enough in its present format.

the most important thing here is the involvement of the performers, this is this piece.  The information collected is not as important, it will be exhibited simply to show the project actially took place and for people to gather and talk about it.

Can I ask for people not to concentrate on the data part of this, i never stressed the importance and now it is taking over!

the most exciting part is in the performers mind when they are walking down the street.  If it is not exciting or stimulating then they simply wont take part, which is fine....I don't want every single person in the world doing this...


In terms of audience...This is something we cant really know about here, but we can guess.  

let me tell a story.

i was walking home last week, i walked through a station and noticed two people, not together (i.e they were not friends, or related) walking through the station, going almost seperate ways.  they were moving in time together and stopped suddenly together, completely unaware of other others presence.  i was in awe, absolute beauty and i was the only one who saw it (as far as I know)

i imagine people will see six_events in motion, but perhaps they won't know what it is....im at a bit of an end there...would someone like to help me out and talk about audience in this situation??



best

Matthew
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« Reply #215 on: 15:54:36, 27-11-2007 »

And just because I support A wholeheartedly doesn't mean I'm no longer left wanting a better explanation of what she finds so incredibly offensive about MLK and his ILK. This is something I need to find out more about myself.

Quote
I can't see how any of this is music. When I did some support teaching in primary schools I did exactly this sort of exercise with infants. We sat in silence for a minute and jotted down (in picture form if they couldn't write) anything they heard during that time... with gaps as the time moved across the page - eg a chair scraping, a cough, a bird, people talking outside... then we made SOUNDS ( not really music) to make a sort of picture of the time passed.

I can't see how you can say that YOU are composing something here Matthew, you are just sort of sitting somewhere and saying ... go and do things ... music??

John Paynter comes to mind in ' Sound and Silence' too, a very 'fashionable'  book in education in the '60s.
Sorry Matthew, welcome , but you have lost me here, I can't see any relevance whatsoever to your music degree or our musicianship... 'Emperor's New Clothes' also comes to mind.

Come on chaps this can't be real??

 
 
 
This is what I said... I meant it.
I don't consider this exercise music... a party game maybe, but not music.

A

Dear A,

thank you so much for your wonderful compliment, i love party games!

consider yourself quoted in all my reseach and advertising!!



Best


matthew
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« Reply #216 on: 15:56:37, 27-11-2007 »

Mathew,

I think a print-out of this thread will be a valuable addition to your project, don't you think?

 Smiley


John W


definitely!!


the internet has never made given me so many emotions in such a short space of time before!

very valuable stuff.



Best

matthew
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« Reply #217 on: 16:03:59, 27-11-2007 »

A, I have already commented recently on the M&S boards on my decidedly negative experience of teaching of music and the pathetically limited definition applied to music by the teacher who went on to be appointed a Director of Music for the local education authority where I had to suffer his antipathy to Stravinsky's work, let alone anything more challenging. It is now getting on for 40 years since Musical Times published "A Scratch Orchestra: Draft Constitution" which included the following:

"Note:  The word music and its derivatives are here not understood to refer exclusively to sound and related phenomena (hearing etc.) What they do refer to is flexible ... "

Now that's what I call music. I have a feeling that Matthew might just have taken on developments in how the term music's flexibility has developed in the past half century or so since Cage and co. arrived on the scene.

I consider it rather reprehensible for teachers not to keep up with the development in their discipline. Even more reprehensible do I consider attempts to roll back the wheel of history.




let us all be flexible.
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« Reply #218 on: 16:11:25, 27-11-2007 »

Postings 199-202 above exactly encapsulate the polarity of this thread.

There is, in reality, no "work of art" at all in anything mentioned about this project BECAUSE - yes - there is no end-product that can be adjudged. Until there is, there is nothing!

The only thing I have ever - in my creeping senility (and as a very ageing potential contributor to the "events") - said is this. "Please, please can I have from the composer some definite statement of aims, objectives, and likely outcomes" so that I can (if I should wish to) participate as meaningfully and usefully as possible.

But what have I had back (ignoring insults and personal attacks from OTHERS)? NOTHING.

Until I am given the courtesy of some more explicit information that in some way clarifies the part I (and others) are supposed to be playing in this "exercise", I think the continued rebukes of my scepticism are misplaced.

Sorry if this sounds a little hazy - it is increasingly difficult (by the hour) for a "sad, old, under-noticed, grumpy old man" to do much better. I am sure the more rational among you will understand that?

Baz


I realise it is hard to keep track of these boards as they move so quickly!

I stated very early on that I do not like to give such things as aims and objectives, it is not an experiment, per se.

I want participants to question themselves and find their own aims and objectives.  you need not bother with my aims and objectives Tongue

I also said, i like simplicity...there are no hidden agendas and nothing complex and overwhelming going on here.


best
matthew
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« Reply #219 on: 16:16:18, 27-11-2007 »

In response to ros's charge of 'obfuscation' -- I am reposting what I put on the enemies of nm thread. i hope that even if people find it objectionable, I hope it is not regarded as obfuscatory.

Also, I hope that those who DO find it objectionable will not think of it as insulting.

Well, I hope Matthew's examiners know the history of the happenings movement well, and are able to constructively guide him away from repeating past experiments -- though even these may achieve different artistic results simply because our world is different from the world of the early seventies.

I was also distressed to read the dismissive and sometimes vituperative retorts to his initial thread, but those clearly come from an outlook very foreign to my own. It is an outlook which feels threatened, perhaps even on a personal level, by the project in question and its ilk. This is the kind of threat which, despite actually being harmless, can provoke quite strong reactions. That is perhaps part of its point.

I was first put off by Nam June Paik when I first learned about his work -- particularly his performance art consisting of the highly dramatic smashing of a violin. The ethos from which he comes, however, is one of detachment, choosing specific provocations designed to make us question exactly the things we hold dear, because that 'holding dear' implies a reciprocal hold that they have on us, and it is imperative to reject that hold for the cause of greater spiritual freedom. To then say, e.g., 'I'd prefer he plays a Bach chaconne' is entirely beside the point, or rather is the point. What's surely beside the point, though, is the composer's (or artist's, or what have you) degree of expended effort or the implication that he is too lazy to compose. Failing that, should he at least choreograph an elaborate ritual surrounding this violin smashing? That wouldn't be a more effective realization of a concept.

Thirty-five years later (approximately), music is a richer thing than ever: musicians are finding ever new ways to re-hear old repertoire, discover new repertoire, and think seriously about music that has no aspirations of becoming repertoire. NJP did not destroy that. When I think of his effect on me, I find that the provocation he initially provided has made me more receptive to the vividness of the traditional repertoire, its malleability, and my inalienable right to question dogmatic approaches to it. At worst, his work has done nothing for people's understanding of the past. It has NOT caused people to love things less, be less curious, or become cynical, at least not on the whole.

A, I feel your frustration about these conceptual approaches to art, but they do serve the good of music. Nobody 'makes' you listen, let alone participate, nor takes away your right to perform what you love and talk about it freely. If they do, refer them to me for a good upbraiding.

Finally, I have participated in a piece of conceptual art, the mother of all concepts in my opinion, and this might be of interest to MLK: a colleague in Stuttgart, Germany, once coordinated the first globally co-ordinated drink of water: at 1:55 in the morning (California time) my wife and I woke up to quaff one glass each of tap water right on the 2:00 hour, previously having coordinated our watches with an atomic clock in Colorado, then turned off the light again and went back to sleep. In the morning we were informed that several hundred people from Europe, Japan, Australia, and South Africa (I think) had participated. Being a part of that (which sounds like a gimmick) was actually very special and not at all trivial. The whole point of this 'performance' was that it was undocumented, unverifiable, and unable to rely on any other dimension than the spiritual. That is music, situated between the cracks of our facade and resonating us.

And that is the most new-agey thing I have said or will ever say on these boards.

Just to get yer wheels turning, MLK -- the composer (organizer) did NOT ask for a receipt, let alone a video conference feed to observe our actual participation. We just all drank some water. If you want to contact him, his name is Jan Kopp, and he too writes concert music.

thank you for replicating this, i throughly enjoyed reading  Smiley

i am interested in jan Kopp and will contact him.

however the fact that he did not ask for confirmation is almost like one person writing a set of piano chords meant to be played without the sustain pedal and another composer writing the same chords meant to be played with the pedal down the whole time....

the fact that you have talked about it here....sort of goes against the concept doesnt it? surely if it was a new age spiritually thing....he would have done it by himself, in secret and never mentioned it to anyone else.

just a thought of course.


best


Matthew
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« Reply #220 on: 16:19:22, 27-11-2007 »

I have before me now what I see as the score of the work, i.e the back of the flier. In presentation it reminds me of similar such fliers I produced some 37 years ago, right down to the shadows on the paste-up. Now, there are many who consider scores to be the music/work of art itself. I tend to feel the music is in the manifestation of the score, rather than the score itself, but I would be interested to read whether, say, Baz or A consider the score of Bach's 48 to be music, or just preparation for an event which may, or may not become music (or another artform).

[The textual content, though not the visual layout,  of what I take to be the score is to be found, in red, in the initial message of this thread].


it was very important to me to make the flier myself and have the very obvious shadows there.

As i have mentioned previously and briefly, the look of something is very important.


it has occured to me that most people may not have seen the actual flier, please send me a message if you want to have a look, I will send it to you by email.



Best

matthew
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« Reply #221 on: 16:24:05, 27-11-2007 »

I know I shouldn't say this as I will be told I am grumping .

But , can anyone explain to me WHY i HAVE to like modern music?

Does everyone here love Delius? Baroque violin playing? Shostakovitch string quartets? Andreas Scholl?

If not ... why not? and if not ... have you been walking round with fingers in your ears? Can they not think for themselves? Are they told what to listen to and what to like?

Show imagination all you tuneless modern music lovers... think of the other side. I have heard enough and rejected... as is my right.

A

I think you re slowing careering off track here...i am slightly confused where you are going, perhaps there is a different thread for this?


Best


Matthew
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« Reply #222 on: 16:27:09, 27-11-2007 »

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Surely if that's a good enough criterion for God it's good enough for music, no?  Roll Eyes

I think it's been pretty clearly established over the last few decades that things that are done in the name of art and received in the name of art can be art. Whether there's an 'end-product that can be adjudged' or not. However definite or hazy are the 'aims, objectives and likely outcomes'... as if it might be a high-school chemistry experiment.

I would respectfully suggest that if something is being done in the name of music and received as music then no one here has the right to say that it isn't.

Does everyone here love Delius? Baroque violin playing? Shostakovitch string quartets? Andreas Scholl?

If not ... why not? and if not ... have you been walking round with fingers in your ears? Can they not think for themselves? Are they told what to listen to and what to like?

Show imagination all you tuneless modern music lovers... think of the other side. I have heard enough and rejected... as is my right.

A

I love Sea-Drift. Don't know much else. I love too much Baroque violin playing to be bothered listing players and pieces. I think I know and love the Shostakovich string quartets as much as pretty well anyone here. Andreas Scholl isn't my very favourite counter-tenor but what he does well he does very well indeed.

I also devote my professional life to new music and don't really see how it helps anyone for someone to tell me that something I find to be music isn't. I don't see that the rubbishing here of a project which hasn't even happened yet says very much for the openness of anyone's ears or minds.

(I'm also not going to take part in the moderation of a thread dealing with new music because I would find it too hard to separate the content from the conduct. I've told Ron and Mort this.)
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« Reply #223 on: 16:39:39, 27-11-2007 »

Words to that effect have been used to describe all manner of compositions through the ages.  Riots have occurred!  Think Rite of Spring.

We live in an age of Turner Prize pickled cows, unmade beds and 4.33.  All in the name of art and music.  It's difficult to come to terms with it all - well I find it so.  I was discussing it with a colleague and he said that really nowadays there's nowhere else to go.  We've done all the best music and the old masters.....

I'm not sure I agree - in fact I don't.  Perhaps it is an age thing.



nowhere else to go?!?!!?


the heavens!!!


sorry for all the exclamation marks,but that shocked me!


Best
Matthew

You've misunderstood I think.  Nowhere else to go - except where you're going - like Damien Hurst and John Cage - way out.  I'm not saying it's not art - just that I find it very hard work to like it.
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« Reply #224 on: 16:44:07, 27-11-2007 »

Even more reprehensible do I consider attempts to roll back the wheel of history.
History's a funny thing though: even when you're rolling its wheel backwards, you're still moving forward in time (= forward in history?!).*

But I don't think Matthew described his composition as music. I wouldn't mind if he had done, myself, but it's certainly noticeable that Matthew is less concerned to say it is music than some other people are to say it isn't!

The more I read Matthew's proposed actions*, the more I found them strangely beautiful.

And I tend to find it more rewarding when I can find a way to see value in something, than when I decide it must be a con. But I'm not someone who really minds being made a fool of. Even if I could really believe that Matthew Lee Knowles was sitting in a room, chuckling away to himself, I wouldn't feel I'd been 'had'. I'd just think he was a bit sad.

I think Mr Knowles is the one who'd be losing face if this whole thing was a con. So, wheels or no wheels, music or no music, I don't feel inclined to doubt his intentions.

Not that they matter or anything. Wink



* (Is it the funniness of history that causes that paradox, or is it the funniness of the 'wheel' metaphor?)


* (or his score, if you want to call it that: it seems reasonable enough to me)
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