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Author Topic: The other place  (Read 18397 times)
Soundwave
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« Reply #30 on: 10:31:18, 25-02-2007 »

Anna.  As I have already said, loyalty works both ways.  I would suggest that if you are paying somebody it is their priority to be loyal rather than your own.
Cheers
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Ho! I may be old yet I am still lusty
thompson1780
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« Reply #31 on: 11:20:36, 25-02-2007 »

Anna,

Am I really exchanging posts with the same lovely Anna who showed such creativity, good judgement and light heartedness before 19th February?

I guess it is a measure of what a great little on-line community we had on the old boards that you feel so passionately about them, and feel so loyal to them.  But for me, the bit that was good about that community was the people - not anything that the beeb did.

I'm loyal to Radio 3 as a radio station to listen to - and I think some of the programmes are excellent.  I hardly ever have a reason nowadays to switch to a CD or (worse still) CFM.

And I haven't abandonned teh old boards - I just cannot see any subject that I'm particularly interested in.  I've contributed to a few threads on Breakfast, and read many others on Breakfast and Music Matters.  But there are not so many threads about programme content as there are about complaining about the changes.

What do you want me to do?  Clog up the boards with even more complaints about the changes, when they have already been made?  If I post something not relating to any of the programmes, I will get closed down.  And I could could make comments about the few threads that are about the programmes themselves, but that just seems pointless.  It's what happens when you are told you can talk but only about certain things - it stiffles everything.

I will submit to the 'Changes' threads started on each board by the hosts.  I will keep an eye on the boards for anything interesting to respond to.  And I will keep pushing R3 on coming up with a better solution for the messageboards.

Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
Soundwave
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« Reply #32 on: 12:00:08, 25-02-2007 »

A disgusted ho!  I have just visited the "old place".  To say that I was horrified at the following Message posted by Sydney Grew is a complete understatement.  He posted:-

"it makes no sense to me at all to have this in the middle of the working afternoon," complains a Member."

""We do not think that a cultural institution such as Radio Three ought to be ought to be making allowances for the exigencies of the system of paid labour or "wage slavery". The correct attitude is to assume at least that all the listeners are ladies and gentlemen of and at leisure. That is a further reason why we find the expression "drive time" so disagreeable.""

Is that what "Members" would consider loyalty?
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Ho! I may be old yet I am still lusty
martle
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« Reply #33 on: 12:07:06, 25-02-2007 »

Oh surely that's just par for the course Grewsomeness. Far more disgusting is the selective modding now going on, of DracoM's attempts to engage with the 'hosts' in particular. Yuck.
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Morticia
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« Reply #34 on: 12:29:06, 25-02-2007 »


HO S`wave!

Well, Syd can be sure of one thing, if he carries on posting in that vein he is guaranteed never to have a post pulled. Pompous ass! However, Syd has always displayed an obvious contempt for fellow MBers. Could it be that he deliberately posted anticipating howls of outrage from other Posters, in order that he can then press the complaint button on them ? It looks as though RW has picked up a few tips from him.

As I was trawling through the posts this morning I noticed one comment by Syd that actually had me nodding my head in agreement. I know, I know, it won`t happen again. He pointed out that on the `old boards` any criticism of presenters was modded pretty sharpish, but now those posts are left to stand even though the criticism is currently of a very personal nature. On that point he is right. Some of comments being hurled at presenters are really very unpleasant and often have nothing to do with the content of their programme. It`s horrible. The BBC has sent the presenters out to face the inevitable shower of spears from listeners, while they sit back and watch the bloodshed.

End of semi-rant. I`ll go and calm down with some coffee now since the sun has not gone down over the yardarm yet. Sad
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Morticia
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« Reply #35 on: 12:32:37, 25-02-2007 »


Martle,

I briefly glimpsed the Draco posting as I was scrolling back on that post. It was about Burnside, I think? When I got there, it had been jumped on. Has he tried posting on the Burnside thread and been clobbered there as well?
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reiner_torheit
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« Reply #36 on: 12:44:28, 25-02-2007 »

Yes, clobbered there too, Morticia.

In addition to Syd, a new pompous ass has appeared named "Pelsenaire", who insists on referring to the channel as "The Third Programme", and is now carrying out a hate-campaign against Sara Pietsch-Mohr on the basis that her latin pronounciation doesn't chime with what he was taught at whatever Prep-School he attended.   Utterly hateful,  but supported by Sydney Grew of course.
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They say travel broadens the mind - but in many cases travel has made the mind not exactly broader, but thicker.
DracoM
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« Reply #37 on: 12:59:44, 25-02-2007 »

THank you for kind things.

I spent a little time in the gulag, re-phrased with some actually rather more damning but less adolescent phrasing, and as far as I know, it seems to have got in under the radar.

But is it not sad and demeaning that intelligent, articulate, educated people have to stoop to such subterfuges to get on, when you have a sneaking feeling that those dealing with the messages simply do not have the wit to realise what they are addressing? Reminds me of the samizdat material circulating in Eastern Europe.

What really does sadden me is that NO-ONE from major management has seen fit to come on to explain, justify, or argue the case. That is what has radicalised and alienated so many people and taken their eye completely off what is actually being broadcast. Interestingly, it has stung Rob Cowan into a most uncharacteristic series of outbursts on of which occasioned my modded reply. Maybe there will build up enough internal, behind the scenes rage that there will have to be a rather faster 'evolution' of the mesageboards as RC called it than was anticipated.
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thompson1780
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« Reply #38 on: 13:22:47, 25-02-2007 »

I've just posted over on Brakfast and Music Matters, and lodged an official complaint.  You can go and see, or read it here with better formatting....

Quote
I know this thread asked for comments on the changes to the messageboards, but I'll comment on all the changes made on 19 February.

1. How the changes were decided upon
In the “Controller’s monthly note - extra” of 15 February, Roger Wright writes:
“It's the first time in five years we have made significant changes to our programming. All radio stations change their programming from time to time, adapting to changing tastes and developing ideas… …We wanted to respond to specific listener comments in revising the schedule on this occasion.“
How did R3 management decide upon the changes, whether that be regarding programming, scheduling, or messageboards? What listener testing or surveys did they do? After all, you don’t make significant changes based on the comments of a few people.
At the moment it seems like R3’s management has made these changes from either a position of “Oh, we don’t need to listen to the listeners - we know what’s best!”, or one of “It’s our radio station, we’ll play with it how we like”. Neither is very good for a group of people spending public money.
Roger Wright needs to ‘show his workings’, as one message board poster has noted.

2. How the changes were communicated
Placing the changes just after a week of Tchaikovsky and Stravinsky meant there was little ‘On Air’ communication of the impending changes - everything was promoting the Tchaikovsky Experience. I’m not a fan of trailers, but for a wholesale change, there should have been more communication. At worst, this lack of communication could be R3 management being underhand, but I suspect it is merely bad planning. R3 managers need to remember that they should not only be transparent in their decision making, but should be public with it.
Notice of messageboard changes was given only a couple of weeks before the changes were due, and in a manner that implied a fait accompli with no online users input. Effectively, the timing killed off the old boards - who would start a new discussion on anything but the most mundane topics with limited time to get answers from fellow boarders? Consequently, as the change deadline approached, the messageboards became a bit useless - to the extent that even a non-BBC board was set up. Losing messageboard users is probably not one of Radio 3’s goals, but this is exactly what happened.
Better would have been to have a transition period - where old threads could still be added to, but new discussions would be on new boards Then after a period, close the old boards completely.
It does have to be said though, that many message board users left the BBC boards because the changes were awful (see below). Worrying about whether to phase in a bad system or introduce it in a clean cut is a bit like trying to decide how to polish a poo. The main focus for Roger Wright and his colleagues should have been to make sure the new board set-up was a good one - which they haven’t.

3. The Changes - Programmes
On the plus side, it seems like many of the new programmes will be good. It is a bit too early to tell in some cases, but I do like what Rob Cowan has done with ‘Breakfast’ - his choice of music is wide-ranging, he orders his chosen works in an interesting way, and he avoids poor performances/recordings. I’m not a fan of playing single movements, but I do like that he doesn’t play long works in their entirety - it’s not really suitable for that busy period of the day.
Many other new programmes look like they have potential. ‘Performing Britten’ and ‘Words and Music’ could develop into really good series. The programme of ‘recorded live’ events looks good, although I hate the term - what’s wrong with ‘recorded concerts’?
Artist Focus is a disappointment. It’s could have been a week of discovering what drives the performer, how they approach a piece, how they learn, perform and record - interlaced with actual music. Instead, we have a week of various recordings, only some of which are from the named artist in focus. What a missed opportunity.
And worrying is what is missing. There seems to have been a reduction in the amount of new music played. If the BBC is scared of programming new music because it is not popular, it should do something to help people appreciate it, not just bow to the whims of the many. I appreciate that on the whole R3 is under pressure to serve its audience, but Roger Wright should remember that he can influence his audience‘s desires. If he merely follows what the majority of people want, R3 will become Classic FM, with only one difference between the two - Classic FM having more funding. Roger Wright needs to know exactly how R3 will be different from CFM, and make that difference attractive. Learning about and appreciating new music could be one of those strands.
The reason it is worrying is because of the portent it has for the Proms. If the BBC reduces its commissions and new music ceases to be such a feature of this festival, it’s hard to see how classical music as a whole will benefit.
Radio 3 has a responsibility to develop its market, as well as to serve it. The lack of focus on performance practice and new compositions leaves R3 overweight in a focus on simply playing music, and verging closer to Classic FM.

4. The Changes - Schedules
Evening concerts starting at 7.00pm are ridiculous! Have you tried to get on a train from London to anywhere after work and get there for a decent interval before 7.00? I now miss many of the first works, and I can’t be alone in having difficulty getting home early enough to get a meal and settle down for the concert. And why was it moved? Presumably to enable “Composer of the Week” to be early. Whilst that needed to be earlier, did it have to be so early? Bringing forward something from midnight (when most people are in bed) to 8.45pm (when most people are watching telly), just seems like missing your audience in a different way.

5. The Changes - Messageboards
Oh dear.
Radio 3 is a classical arts channel. One of the things about the arts is that boundaries a blurred - discussion in one area will spark off discussion in another. The old boards were too rigid in the sense that if you posted on one board and had a thought about another you’d have to swap boards, but at least each board let you explore the full potential for each ‘topic’. The new boards being exclusively for comment about specific programmes are overly restrictive. Discussions that might in the past have led to an interesting point for Radio 3 might now be out-of-bounds of each of the new boards. Consequently, if you are playing by the rules of the new boards, the R3 boards are a very dull place to be.
Admittedly, there has been a lot of waffle on the old boards, and this may have caused system and resource problems. I understand that changes may have been needed, but the restrictiveness of the new environment has killed off something very special, very rare, and what could have been an asset to Radio 3. The freedoms that the old board allowed, meant interesting discussions and fostered what was a very creative community that loved Radio 3. The old threads included many ideas for the future of Radio 3, for new programmes, for message board improvements, for new themes and new styles to ‘experiences’. Whilst R3 might not act directly on these suggestions, they were at least a source of ideas R3 managers could have investigated, tested with a wider listener group, and developed into programmes. The board changes of 19th February have killed the board community and thus the source of these ideas.
Worse still is the appalling inflexibility of the hosts In helping users make the transition from a relatively free environment to a very restrictive one. With the exception of the Breakfast board, Monday 19th February saw hosts closing down threads left, right, and centre with standard paragraphs and no guidance for board members or answers to their questions. When making a change, any decent manager knows you have to help people through that change - whether they be managers, staff, listeners, or online users.
And the stresses led to some inexcusable actions. The admission that Chris, a host form Radio 2, used Sylvie’s user id and password at the behest of Southendian, just smacks of underhandedness, and a lack of security and good business practice.
I’m not a fan of the actions of some boarders in deliberately flouting the new board rules, but I can appreciate why they have felt driven to posting so many out-of-scope threads. The old message board community was a great thing, and people undoubtedly feel passionate about losing it, or having it bossed about. People fight when they are restricted after a time of freedom, so it’s not surprising there are so many off-topic threads. Sadly, the result is a set of boards where to find any interesting discussion just means filtering through a lot of complaints - and given the restrictive nature of the boards, it’s just not worth the bother.
Basically, on the message board side, R3 has demonstrated complete incompetence in design of the end solution and worse still in the management of the change to that design, and service for its customers.
I work in the private sector. If I failed my customers so badly, I would have been sacked ages ago. Something to think about……

6. Interactivity
One of the things the new R3 seems to advocate is interactivity. Unfortunately, much of that is aired, and presenters encourage people to post requests on the internet. This is verging dangerously close to Classic FM territory. I don’t want to waste time learning that so-and-so from Essex has asked for Massenet’s Thais - I just want to hear the work!
I agree that R3 should listen to its listeners, but there is another way. Interaction between listeners and the station does not have to be at the level of request for particular works. I trust Radio 3 presenters and programmers to programme interesting works, based on the general feedback of its listeners. I want the interaction in the background, or as on the message boards, in a way that you can ignore if you don’t want to read it.

7. Overall
Roger Wright and Radio 3 have not been open with how they arrived at the changes. They have not been clear as to why they believe these changes are an improvement. They did not communicate the changes well. The changes have some good aspects, but lead dangerously toward mimicking Classic FM, when taking on a commercial organisation is a suicidal approach for an organisation under pressure to reduce license fees . Schedule changes are questionable. Messageboard changes are a complete disaster - R3 has demonstrated complete incompetence in design of the end solution and worse still in the management of the change to that design, and service for its customers.
All in all, not very good. At least, an apology is called for, as well as a rectification of the way messageboards are handled. If it comes to light that these wholesale changes were made with inadequate audience testing, then I believe some of the Radio 3 management should go.

Tommo

I hope that meets with everyone's approval.......

Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
trained-pianist
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« Reply #39 on: 13:36:13, 25-02-2007 »

I think that radio 3 reflects changes in government policies and it is useless to fight them. Am I too pessimistic? I am slow to understand the subtleties and generally slow witted I think. Good luck everybody.
« Last Edit: 13:37:50, 25-02-2007 by trained-pianist » Logged
Morticia
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« Reply #40 on: 13:47:58, 25-02-2007 »

Tommo,

Just read your posting Over The Road. Well done, my man! You seem to have covered everything and have written from a clearly considered viewpoint and conveyed precisely how much of a car crash the whole exercise has been without, hopefully, the pitbulls diving in to zap you. If you get disappeared I will be forced to eat my deerstalker.   
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DracoM
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« Reply #41 on: 13:50:00, 25-02-2007 »

Well, I have just been modded again!! The same bit I re-wrote. No explanation as to why it contravenes House ruels whatsover. So, here goes: this is what I wrote:

"RC

You have a long and distinguished track record in 'interaction'. Maybe you could have a word with colleagues who invite such and then fail to participate despite bright little smiles last Monday, and many encouragements from the mb's.

Burnside, Service, CDReview? Not a peep. They have tiny and relatively insignificant programmes. Afternoon on 3, Performance on 3, Night Waves, Through the night, Choral Evensong, all Speech and Drama, In Tune, Late Junction / Andy Kershaw  have NO contact / discussion places whatsoever, and constitute a HUGE percentage of the R3 week between them. Does that tell us that R3 management does not value the other 85% of its output? What have the progs with mb’s actually done yet to justify the getting an mb to themselves?

Can you wonder that frustration is spilling over  on you, one of the very rare communicators, when we are almost totally disenfranchised elsewhere? The brutality and peremptory, almost Kafka-esque finality that has characterised much of what happened last week has left some very, very sour memories and done a lot of damage, while helping to radicalise a lot of people. Your own reactions to the chorus of outrage indicated that that cry had been at least in part heard.  So, the fault is not yours, and you should not either be put in, or feel you have to put yourself in the position of defending R3. Let some of these other colleagues come on an explain.

I'd like to hear Burnside defend the deeply unchallenging and diffuse stuff on  his programme. Where is the CDR team to explain the devastating amputation and displacement of BAL  that has taken place there? What has Tom Service done anyway and why does HE get an entire board to himself for 45 minutes, not even regularly, but every so often when so many other progs are denied?

Maybe someone would like to come on to justify? But frankly, I am not holding my breath. "


So where is the offence?

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Anna
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« Reply #42 on: 15:30:53, 25-02-2007 »

Anna,

Am I really exchanging posts with the same lovely Anna who showed such creativity, good judgement and light heartedness before 19th February?

Tommo

Tommo, I do apologise to you and to anyone else I have been bad tempered with.  I have been upset about my beloved Radio 3 and the direction it is taking.  I will try to regain my equilibrium.  Sorry
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thompson1780
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« Reply #43 on: 15:57:19, 25-02-2007 »

Anna,

We all still love you.  Apology readily accepted.  Let's all hope we can quickly get to a place with R3 management and messageboard hosts where we all feel happy.

Very best wishes

Tommo
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Made by Thompson & son, at the Violin & c. the West end of St. Paul's Churchyard, LONDON
Anna
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« Reply #44 on: 16:07:04, 25-02-2007 »

Cheers Tommo! <hug>
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